Apple Helps You Install Windows on a Mac

I've been debating getting one of the new intel macs for simplifying burning home movies / making them look a lot better. I've had three different windows based programs for dvd authoring and each has nice features but none offer all the benefits of the apple program in one package. This just made it much more likely that I'll do it. Basically the only thing I am waiting for now is a decent tv tuner option and I'll have one in my living room as an HTPC

I'm a PC user.....and still uninterested in a Mac. Their prices are still astronomical compared to a PC, which is also why Dell and HP and such shouldn't be too worried. I can spend an arm and a leg for Apples "superior" hardware, or I can I buy a Dell or an HP and get something just as good. Besides, seems like a waiste to buy a Mac....and then just use Windows on it, because that's sure as hell all i'd be doing.

This would be a great feature to include. Not only would this save money for those of us that use both platforms (which i do), to dual boot is a great feature. Now I no longer need to keep my mac and my intel desktop up to date, I can keep one hardware platform up to date and get the best of both worlds.

All I do on windows is game anyway...what else is it for when mac does everything else way more elegantly.

You can tell LADIESMAN uses a PC, he can't spell!

This is a great development. I have always been a cross-platform person but have always preferred the Mac and OSX whenever possible. This means that in the future I can have only one machine that does both tasks! And as for paying an "arm and a leg", and a previous poster stated. Anyone who has looked into it knows that a quality machine from Mac doesn't cost much more, and sometimes less than, a quality PC. It's just misinformation to say otherwise. Not to mention the fact that Macs tend to have longer life and less repair costs.

Really the value of this is huge for video editors, production companies, media based industires like mine it seems to me. Total adaptability & the best of all worlds. Course it depends on how Win XP on MAC acually performs??!!

I think the next logical step would be for Apple to license Windows Pro or Media Center and include it in an Intel Mac bundle on a separate DVD for an optional install just like it does with its XCode developer tools. I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Yes, I guess that means I'm asking Apple to SUPPORT Windows too.

Apple just opened up 90% of the market it had no hope of accessing. Apple has the most eloquently designed computers. By Christmas they will release a $1200 laptop. Apple?s not going to lose their base with decision and they should be able to double their share.

I don't see any clear statement about visibility of file systems across the operating systems. Anyone tried this yet? There's little value if the files cannot be shared.

I just read that if you format the Windows partition with NTFS then files cannot be shared. You need to format in FAT instead. Only FAT partitions are visible in mac OSX.

What happens when Microsoft tells us to install Windows on our Macs when we want to use Office? No more Mac support, I have to buy Windows, and I have to buy a new Office package.

I don't look forward to that at all.

It?s about time!

Let?s stop and look at this for a second?

First, Apple needs to remediate the problem of legions of folks stumbling around with the same clich?d 15 year old image of a Mac ? a problem that Apple has always been totally negligent in combating!

And begin by dispelling the 2 largest myths: that Macs cost more and that Macs are incompatible! No techno babble! Just plain language and examples that my mother can appreciate!

Apple, and Jobs in particular, needs to take a break from pushing their elitist image that educates no one and actually provide the average technophobic user with say, a 2 minute substantive infomercial explaining the real tangible differences between the Mac and a Windows PC. Compare Apples and oranges, if you will! EDUCATE the public market!
Cease the dependence on the ignorant 19 year old Best Buy/Circuit City salesperson who directs the parent to a PC when they asked ?why not a Mac?, only to be told the same old ignorant clich?s!

Heck, if you Apple employees are still clueless, start reading InfoWorld!

And explain to the average users the functional advantages of OSX over Windows! And in another thread, DON?T forget to address those enterprise oriented folks who could, if adequately informed, envision consolidating platforms and simplifying distributed desktop management by using OSX server instead of WinServer2003! Especially as it is natively compatible with all of the various Linux and big iron UNIX variants, providing a functional scalable bridge both upwardly and downwardly between large 64-bit application environments such as databases and CRM/SAP environments and the desktop environment, be it Windows or OSX! And communicate the strategic advantages of OSX licensing and ease of OSX administration ? well, here you can let the users start thinking here! They already know about Windows and Red Hat licensing costs!

With the new Macs, we finally realize the potential to have ONE machine do it all ? and very well, thank you! ? has FINALLY dawned! The new Macs are the trump card where you get everything instead of having to compromise and make a choice!

And complete the offereing by releasing OSX for the PC! Offer the legions of folks who are desperate enough to wrestle with the ?little Unix designed by Windows programmers to look like Windows? called Linux (so much for innovation! ;-) and let them know that not only is OSX UNIX, with full blow command line UNIX as close as a terminal session, but that it is the most POSIX complaint ?Windows friendly? UNIX with applications! And no more use of terminal emulation! Ouch! The irony is that most current Mac owners do not know that full blown UNIX is under the covers! Empower those brave enough to look! Apple has the power to be a Linux killer on the desktop!

And get VMWare to support OSX and you move right into the enterprise with a 64-bit UNIX Windows administrative bridge! After all, the most prominent question asked in the Q&A sessions after VMWare?s user?s meeting this past year after the Intel migration was announced, will VMWare do OSX!

OSX has the potential to be a Linux killer ? an x86 UNIX that is EASY to use, POWERFUL, Windows-friendly, and it actually has powerful applications (unlike Linux!) (In this tangent, Apple would be smart to release OSX for the standard PC! Let it replace Linux on the desktop and continue to differentiate their machines with additional Mac/PC functionality that serves as a step up from the generic PC!

Apple has had portions of the puzzle in the past, but Apple finally has all of the pieces to make bold moves into the traditional Windows space as well as the Linux and mid-range UNIX spaces! And all with ONE machine!

Apple, please don?t blow it this time!

I used to be an Apple pusher until they screwed every one that owns a Powerbook G4 titanium. It seems that almost all of the Tibook's Displays within a short period of time go bad. And now Apple wants more money to fix something that should be recalled.
I AM VERY DISSAPOINTED IN APPLE!

I'm trying to figure out if Macs require using FAT on the Windows side to be able to read folders on each, does OSX use FAT? Being a Windows user, I don't know. But doesn't FAT use disk space inefficiently when compared to NTFS?

For the elitist jerk that bashed on the guy with spelling issues: If that is your way of judging people, or casting aspersions because of simple spelling; then perhaps you need some counseling.

I'm interested to know if Apple's kicking video software will run on high end PCs, which do look to be less expensive.

I'm a 47 y/o Windows developer but was "raised" on a Mac. I dumped the mac w/win 3.1 but always missed the simplicity. I don't use the Mac because why have 2 machines at home? If Apple follows through with this, and the prices are in line, my next box will be from Apple. If Apple prices are too high, it's wintel. I would use the Mac for personal use; music, pics, vid, journal etc... & Windows for writting apps and cursing at...

I think I'm dreaming! I'm able to get rid of a PC Desktop and load Windows on a MAC which is the machine i prefer. Now, I have a "reason" to purchase the NEW Imac 20" - Getting rid of a PC and a G3 Mac - replaced by ONE NEW machine. PROVIDED Windows XP and Windows based programs run -- which I will wait a few weeks to let the ones with INTEL Mac's verify -- as a workable solution - 2 OS's on 1 INTEL Mac sounds good to me!

LADIESMAN, Apple hardware costs the same and even less than PC hardware when you configure them the same. Look at the specs on any Apple machine and then go to Dell's website and try to match it. Your statement is just out of ignorance. Why not be open to the possibility that you have been mislead by the masses.
BTW, you can't get the quality of software plus the security and hasslefree environment of a Mac by using a PC.

It's like someone who supports a politician no matter what they do because they can't admit to themselves that they may be wrong.
- John

I am thrilled at the prospect of being able to run Windows XP on Macintosh. Currently I have have 12" PowerBook G4 which I do everything on including our church web page. But I had to always keep a Windows computer around to run Dragon Naturally Speaking and various graphic programs not available for Macintosh. With the advent of being able to run Windows XP on a Macintosh, I can now buy a Intel based Mac Mini and get rid of my Windows computer.

Note: Another big feature about Macintosh, since it is Unix based it much much less prone to viruses and trojans and other problems which which constantly plages Windows from the internet. This is a big feature which makes me embarce Macintosh.

There's still no reason to buy a Mac, twice as expensive with a horribly inneficient OS. Form over function for twice the price.

For people who say that a similarly configured Dell and Mac cost the same, I'll say that they are speaking the truth, IF they don't take into account Dell's outrageously huge discounts with online coupons. Just go to google, type in "Dell coupons", and depending on the time of the year, can find discounts up to 50%. Even during downtimes, there are atleast 25% off coupons.

ladiesman-

hmm...

you definitely need to research a tad bit more- yes. a mac cost more than your everyday pc.. because well.. its better.

of course you get go out and buy a dell for far less- thats because they are going to charge you as you put it "an arm and a leg" to fix it in 6 months when it crashes.. as with a mac you schedule an appt. take it to the store and they fix it while you wait..

and to take that even further- you can schedule an appt with a creative there- and they can teach you how to use the software that you use on your mac..

now you tell me which company i can find with the same benefits as apple...

and i doubt that i would ever switch back.. but lets just say.. i doubt that you could name any.

This is the death of Mac software as we know it. Certainly simultaneous/sequential booting is next, with a keystroke to switch between operating systems. I love my Mac. This is a terrible announcement. Developers won't create new software for the Mac if there is no market and this clearly dilutes the market.

Just for the record, i'm a Dell salesman. Believe me, I know the prices of a similarly configured Dell and a Mac. And yes, Mac's ARE overpriced.

(off topic...what did a spell incorrectly? The only thing i'm unsure of is "waiste" vs. "waste"...)

Who cares about OS X or Windows running on the pretty hardware? I can't wait to run Linux on them.

"There's still no reason to buy a Mac, twice as expensive with a horribly inneficient OS. Form over function for twice the price." OS X is far more efficient than XP. Try them both with 512mb of RAM and compare (of course youv'e probably never used OS X. You are just regurgitating typical garbage that you heard someone else say. Three words: form AND function. Those machines function wonderfully, and hey, they look good too, why not? A computer is an appliance. When you buy a new refrigerator you want it to function well, but you don't want it to look like a piece of junk do you? BTW inneficient is spelled: inefficient. Good day!

This is a nice feature but the reason that people go to Mac is to get away from Microsoft. I have been interested in trying the Mac OS but would prefer to install the OS on a Dell or something else. I like some Mac's hardware but some of it useless and overpriced

"Just for the record, i'm a Dell salesman. Believe me, I know the prices of a similarly configured Dell and a Mac. And yes, Mac's ARE overpriced."

If you being a Dell salesman makes you an authority on the pricing of Macs then the guy that picks up fish guts on the pier is an authority on the Dubai ports deal.

I don't see how you can say that Boot Camp makes Virtual PC superfluous. I would much rather run Virtual PC or VMWare if it become available (in virtualization, not emulation, since it would run much faster). That way you don't have to dual boot and can use both operating systems at the same time and share files between them - much more convenient.

Dear Dell Ladiesman. I was configuring a laptop last week and similarly spec'd Apple vs Dell, the Apple was $80 more expensive. If you call that over priced, then so be it. Dell's fake deals and pricing structure are horrible - I never know if I've got the best deal or if I'm getting screwed. Plus, Dell's M65 and M90 that run on the Intel CoreDuo chip don't ship until at least the end of the month. I can walk into an Apple Store on my way home and walk out with a MacBook Pro. Now that Apple are supporting dual booting and more importantly providing the drivers to get the hardware talking to XP, I think that's exactly what I'll do.

As a dual platform user, I would also like to join the chorus singing the praises of Mac OSX. The price issue is also not well understood. Apple of course does not offer a $500 dollar notebook, they simply don't compete in the low end/feeble user market. Howerver a Windows based PC notebook comprable in hardware and performance will actually cost you more than the Mac. You can buy the least expenesive Mercedes and it still blows the doors of the most expensive Pontiac. Same thing for desktops if you build or buy a PC with the performance of the Power Mac G5 it's going to cost substantially more than 2 grand. Would you buy a Dell from the guy above (who sells Dells?)

I think this is a smart move for Apple, sort of like releasing a crossover pop tune, it is extremely attractive to dual platform users, dedicated Mac OS users may be interested in the novelty, and Windows PC wonks could take a tentative first step away from being a Microstooge. With iPod's having dominant market share in digital music and Apple making home theater PC a straight out of the box experience, Apple stands to gain substantial market share in personal electronics and computing in the years ahead.

As a dual platform user, I would also like to join the chorus singing the praises of Mac OSX. The price issue is also not well understood. Apple of course does not offer a $500 dollar notebook, they simply don't compete in the low end/feeble user market. Howerver a Windows based PC notebook comprable in hardware and performance will actually cost you more than the Mac. You can buy the least expenesive Mercedes and it still blows the doors of the most expensive Pontiac. Same thing for desktops if you build or buy a PC with the performance of the Power Mac G5 it's going to cost substantially more than 2 grand. Would you buy a Dell from the guy above (who sells Dells?)

I think this is a smart move for Apple, sort of like releasing a crossover pop tune, it is extremely attractive to dual platform users, dedicated Mac OS users may be interested in the novelty, and Windows PC wonks could take a tentative first step away from being a Microstooge. With iPod's having dominant market share in digital music and Apple making home theater PC a straight out of the box experience, Apple stands to gain substantial market share in personal electronics and computing in the years ahead.

As a dual platform user, I would also like to join the chorus singing the praises of Mac OSX. The price issue is also not well understood. Apple of course does not offer a $500 dollar notebook, they simply don't compete in the low end/feeble user market. Howerver a Windows based PC notebook comprable in hardware and performance will actually cost you more than the Mac. You can buy the least expenesive Mercedes and it still blows the doors of the most expensive Pontiac. Same thing for desktops if you build or buy a PC with the performance of the Power Mac G5 it's going to cost substantially more than 2 grand. Would you buy a Dell from the guy above (who sells Dells?)

I think this is a smart move for Apple, sort of like releasing a crossover pop tune, it is extremely attractive to dual platform users, dedicated Mac OS users may be interested in the novelty, and Windows PC wonks could take a tentative first step away from being a Microstooge. With iPod's having dominant market share in digital music and Apple making home theater PC a straight out of the box experience, Apple stands to gain substantial market share in personal electronics and computing in the years ahead.

"Just for the record, i'm a Dell salesman. Believe me, I know the prices of a similarly configured Dell and a Mac. And yes, Mac's ARE overpriced."

If you being a Dell salesman makes you an authority on the pricing of Macs then the guy that picks up fish guts on the pier is an authority on the Dubai ports deal.

I accidentally forgot to put my name. I didn't want to get flamed for being a coward.

Reports I've read of those who have managed the hack install of Windows XP on the IntelMacs: Windows apps FLY! This is probably because of Apple's superior hardware, architecture and integration. Not surprising because, after all, Dell just buys components and slaps them together in an cheap box. It doesn't have to get any better because people who walk into PC stores are clueless captive customers. I think similarly configured Mac's are actually CHEAPER than PC's because Macs come with loads of superbly designed and integrated FREE software--many buyers never have to purchase additional software at all. That said, there are a few Windows-only apps I'd like to try. And all those wonderful games......drool. I'm hoping Apple will bump up Boot Camp another notch to install XP to run within OSX in a window, more-or-less as a utility that can share files, similar to Virtual PC.

The risk for Apple here is that major software developers who now produce both Windows and OSX versions, will decide to drop the OSX version. This would be a real downer for Mac users because they would be forced into the lamely archaic, buggy, virus-worm-infested Windows environment to get work done.

As a Mac user, I must say I'm embarrassed about A.Teacher's ridicule of Ladiesman's spelling. Spelling has no bearing on the merits of one's opinions.

In response to the Dell salesman: Who would ask a Chevy salesman the merits of buying a Toyota? Of course he's going to say Toyotas are overpriced. He's not under oath. My opinion of Dell: Junk is overpriced no matter what you pay for it. I'm reminded of one of my former employees who, after he moved to a new job, groaned, "... they gave me a c*r*a*p*p*y Dell."

All the people complaining about windows, why the hell would you even boot windows on a mac if you dont like pc's that's what windows is made for not a mac and get over it use a pc or a mac pc. dont try to do something stupid you cant make up your mind use one or the other whats so hard about that.

I have to say and agree this could be a great pro for the utilitarian Mac user who is forced to use Windoze [sic] at work but at home is happy with their Mac. Perhaps this could help that population with, say, this:

"BOSS: Well, I'm not letting you use that whiteish box with the creepy metal shape holding it up at the bottom with the 20-incher screen, with the bought-off-EBay pre-bitten-out-of picture of an Apple on it!
WORKER: But it runs Windows too!
BOSS: Uh-huh. Like Billy Gates would open his gates to let the 'Used-'n-Bitten-Apple' to run his almighty Windows with the also 'God-like' IE on it!
WORKER: Well, you earned it! {pulls out flame thrower and puts the BOSS's Windoze box a-flame.}
BOSS: OH! MY BABY! {cries and runs to his Mommy, who, incidentally, is a Mac user}"

Heh-heh. Poor IE and Windows using boss. Ran to his Mac-mother. We gotta get more movin to Mac, don't you say?

YOU: You bet!
Lady Man: Shut up, you *****es! (Sorry, I don't swear!)
YOU pull out a sniper rifle & shoot Lady Man's Dell PCs.
Lady Man runs to his Mac-using boss. Gets fired. Switches to Mac reluctantly but 5 min. later is in digital nirvana. Gets hired by a local Apple Store and lives (really) happily ever after!

Think about it!

ladiesman-

just an FYI- my husband works for apple.. so i know why they are overpriced...and i know that they are passionate about what they create.

and you didn't tell me what dell has to offer that isn't a TON better offered on a mac.

just a thought.

As the father of school age children and an advisor to the local school district, this commitment from Apple solves a wealth of problems for me.

Any desktop application I could ever need I can now run on one beautifully engineered machine. I will never look elsewhere for a PC again.

For those of you who say it's somehow "misinformation" say that PCs are cheaper than macs, give me ANY mac, and I will configure a much more powerful PC system for the same price, or an equivalent system for a lower price, and post it here.

I repeat: A N Y mac.

On the FAT vs. NTFS thing- Mac OS X can read both, but only write to FAT (Windows can't see Mac partition however). Within OS X you will be able to see both partitions, but if the Windows side is NTFS (which it likely will be for size reasons) it will be read-only from the Mac side. If you want to write something to the windows side you'll either need a third partition in FAT to use as a transfer station or email or burn a CD with the file(s).

As for the debate, I can't see this diluting Mac, only enhancing their hardware sales. It will ultimately open the hardware to more customers, and that's where Apple makes its margins. People who like OS X will still like it, and more people will be introduced to it thanks to this additional huge convenience. Most people who don't buy Macs but considered it stopped short because of Windows compat. issues. Now they don't have those.

at least apple is finally doing something right. for years, they have been dragging their feet on dismantling their OS division. now, we can see that they are repositioning themselves to be a hardware manufacturer, and kill off thier pointless operating system. why they waiting this long is a mystery.

Power user>

G5s are slow!

Well, I'm not going to defend Ladiesman. I am a sales consultant for Dell. Heck, when I read the announcement today by Mac, I was very interesting in buying on. Since I just spent a load on a gaming computer, I won't be doing it soon.

Regarding the claim that similarly configured systems from Dell and Mac cost almost the same, I just priced out a Macbook Pro and an E1505. They are similarly configured, except:

1. The Macbook Pro has a three year warranty; the Dell has a four years with Complete Care, Dell on Call, a training guide, and online training. I don't know what Mac includes with their AppleCare plan.

2. The memory on the Mac is 667, but it is single channel. The Dell is 533, but dual channel. I'm not sure which will come out ahead, but it will be close.

3. The Mac has 128 MB X1600 video card. The Dell has a 256 MB x1400. Granted, the 256 is 128 dedicated, 128 shared, but I believe the processing core runs at the same speed.

4. The Mac doesn't have a carrying case, Internet Security/AV (which according to the guys at Macworld, you should have even on a Mac), or a modem (Yes, I'm one of the few million people out of the range of broadband). The Dell has all of these.

Price:

Macbood Pro: $2548 plus tax.
Dell e1505: $2036 plus tax. (This is the price anyone can get from a Dell Direct location. There are coupons online that would save much more. The price with a 40% off coupon that is running today is around $1400 dollars. That is just $1100 cheaper than the Macbook Pro.)

Granted, simply being more expensive does not make a product overpriced. The Dell Renagade was priced at $9930. Apparently enough people thought that was worthwhile, because it sold out in less than three days.

Further, I have access to margin numbers per part. I know what the markup on individual parts is. I doubt the Mac is getting the volume discount that Dell is simply due to marketshare. That doesn't mean that Mac is making a killing on their computers.

BTW, does Safari have I don't think IE does, and this page certainly doesn't. Spell-check hounds lay off. Some of us DID grow up on MS Word with auto correct. Just for kicks, I will run this entire post through Word to spell check it.

Lastly, what does Dell think about Windows on Mac? I imagine Michael Dell isn't too keen. He offered Steve Jobs a chunk of change if Apple would allow Dell to offer Mac OSX on Dell machines. Maybe that will happen yet.

At this point, I would say that Mac is Dell's largest competitor. Sure, throw all kinds of numbers around; it's just my opinion based on the hundreds of shoppers I talk to every week. For every one person who is deciding between a Dell and HP/Gateway/Sony, there are four weighing a Dell vs. a Mac. Oh yeah, and THEY are the ones who say Mac is more expensive, not me.

I?m glad Apple made the first move toward consolidation. I like them; I just can?t afford one yet. If you want to check service and reliability ratings, you will find that both Dell and Apple rank at the top.

So, is this unbiased enough? Or do I need to start posting bibliographies and urls to validate everything I say.

Oh, and all the people who get upset about poor spelling and grammar, please only hit the submit button once. I don't really want to have to read your post four times.

Tsk tsk. See? Word doesn't insert missing words!

Good posts here! I think apple made a right move for their company. When their prices become more competitve, i will definetely consider one. As for now, I will build my own PC for half the price and twice the whistles.

"For those of you who say it's somehow "misinformation" say that PCs are cheaper than macs, give me ANY mac, and I will configure a much more powerful PC system for the same price, or an equivalent system for a lower price, and post it here"

WHOOO, who cares, it'll be running a malware ridden crappy OS. I don't need 300 fps on Half-Life 2.

Why would I want windows crap on my perfectly good mac?

Mac users since the beginning of time have forecasted the eventual demise of the regular PC industry...once the public realized what they have been missing out on in terms of performance and user-experience they would never go back to "the dark side"

Today's announcement was just one of many key parts that will take the mac into the worldwide marketshare it really deserves. Stay tuned because I am sure there are better things to come.

I would prefer a virtual machine to a dual-boot setup. Running Windows or Linux in a VM is nice - when it horks and dies, you just lose that VM.

I've been a Mac user since the very beginning. For the first time I'm really stumped if I'll stay there or just give up. OS X has declined in quality since 10.3.x, and I'm seeing a large amount of hardware failures these days from Apple equipment. For some reason, this is beginning to feel like the period from 1995-1997 all over again.

It's impressive that Dell is so threatened that their SALES FORCE has invaded this forum in full battle armor!

But easily dismissed.

To repeat the reports:
WindowsXP apps FLY on IntelMacs, and, comparatively, CRAWL on Dell.

One-to-one configuration comparisons are intentionally misleading.

They're saying, "Give me a list of all the parts of your Mercedes. I'll pile them in my chop shop, glue them together, and give you something just as good-- for less money!"

The difference is design, engineering and integration of the whole system as a unit. This what Apple does, and Dell does NOT.

A computer should be more than the sum of its parts.

With this I must say: for those of you who already have purchased a Dell, you have a fine machine. Your money is well spent. You did very well. Enjoy exploring Windows. Computers are amazing things and you can do amazing things with yours. Your Dell is a marvelous and productive technological achievement in itself. Good luck. Be happy. Peace.

When your ready for an upgrade, think about browsing an Apple Store, just for fun, before you make your decision. :-)

I think it is a smart idea by Apple. This way they attract more customers and once the new users get familiar with Mac operating system, they would use it instead of windows. I never had an Apple computer but now i'm considering it. Once again Apple's sales department is smart.

iman

Thank

Does anyone else think 'ladiesman" and "j.rocke" are the same person?

Anyway, this makes me no more or less likely to buy a Mac (mostly because I already have one).

And, I'm sorry, it is just ridiculous to say that PCs and Macs are comparably priced. You KNOW that's not true, as much as you'd like to believe otherwise. Make no mistake though, Macs are superior machines...there's a REASON that Macs are more expensive.

These old arguments about cost are a waste of time. If some guy has a Dell and he is happy, fine. Same thing for a Mac. If you're going to argue cost then you should be talking cost of ownership. But let's not go there.

I used to have a Windows, a Mac and a UNIX box on my desktop. I was delighted when I was able to get rid of my expensive UNIX box and I'll be most happy to run Windows on my Mac and get rid of one more hunk of irom. And maybe save a little more money.

I hve not run spellcheck or grammer check, so have fun.

Just setup SMB file sharing and you can access your Windows file share from Mac and on Mac setup an SMB share and voila.. you have file sharing via TCP/IP and SMB.

The extreme bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the swetness of a cheap price is forgotten.

Macs can now run Windows, but PCs still can't run OSX. Hmmm.

My work requires me to have both platforms. I need to upgrade my Piece of C**p anyway. Looks like I'll be getting an intel Mac!

I keep hearing someone ask about FAT and NTFS; read the FAQ:

If the partition is 32 GB or smaller, you can use either FAT or NTFS. If it's larger than 32 GB, then you can only format it using NTFS. Mac OS X can read and write FAT volumes, but only read NTFS volumes. Refer to the Windows XP documentation if you are not sure which best suits your needs.

Hey j.roce,

In your comparison you failed to talk about the software that comes preloaded on both machines: On a Mac you get high-quality, integrated software - on the PC you get mostly trial/lite versions of hopelessly flawed programs that do nothing more than take up space.

And by the way, you pay more for a BMW or Mercedes than a Ford. Yes a Ford will get you from point A to B (sometimes) but it's about form and function - it's about style. Go ahead - enjoy your Pinto.

Windows XP 2003 = Apple 2006

"So, is this unbiased enough? Or do I need to start posting bibliographies and urls to validate everything I say"

No J. Rocke, your post is good, and pretty much on the money. Everyone have a good day. Some chains always get yanked, I hope no one takes it TOO seriously.

SPELL CHECK (modified from an unknown source)

Eye halve a spell lean check her. Dew ewe halve won two? It awl weighs nose, sum times eve in bee four aye dew, weather oar knot sum miss stakes mite halve bin maid. Know moor miss steaks!!

This would be amaxing for Audio/Video editors/engineers/producers etc. but only if it can run Windows Vista properly. For us producers it basically means I dont need two PCs to run Logic/Cubase (Logic is MAC only based).

Macs are the best. I use a Mac at home and a Windows machine at work. They just gave us new IBM PCs with 3Gig processor and running XP.
It crashes at least twice a day and for the last three weeks I have had to Hard boot it when Outlook has hung it up.
On the other hand my Mac (G3) 433 Mhz, has not been turned off or booted in a month and runs beautifully. It runs most programs at least as fast as the windows machine and the programs are much more elegant. Its not noisy and I am not having to clean off malware programs all the time.
I use Act at work for sales management and it would be nice to run it on my Mac at home as it is only a Windows based program. So I am happy to hear the announcement today that the new Intel Macs will run Windows as well as OSX.
Macs are just so great to use.

From the official Apple site:

"Macs use an ultra-modern industry standard technology called EFI to handle booting. Sadly, Windows XP, and even the upcoming Vista, are stuck in the 1980s with old-fashioned BIOS. But with Boot Camp, the Mac can operate smoothly in both centuries."

Haa! It's funny when people like Ladiesman try to say that Macs are more expensive than PCs, check out this com-par-i-son:

Dell XPS 600

$1,839

20" Screen
Pentium? D Processor 820 with Dual Core Technology (2.8GHz)
Nvidia 6800
1 Gig DDR2
250 Gig SATA HD
DL DVD/CD-RW
Windows XP

vs

iMac 20" Intel

$1,874

20" TFT built-in display
Intel Core Duo 2.0GHz
ATI x1600 256MB
SuperDrive
I Gig DDR2
250GB SATA HD
Wireless Built-in
Built in iSight Camera
Built in Speakers+microphone
iLife '06
OS X and Windows XP

BTW the intel imac 20" is $1,757 for the same stats.

Whine all you want about it, but the iMac is clearly a better machine than that "overpriced" Dell.

Edit: the 20" intel iMac that's $1,757 is for student prices

Another smart business decision by Apple - congrats!

The point of the whole matter is that there are things that both operating systems do well. The Mac OS has excellent design and stability and Windows has the most impressive and extensive software catalog you can find.

Now Apple's machines and only Apple's machines, overpriced or not, can give you the best of both worlds for much, much less than the price of two similar computers running different platforms. And probably with a lot less hassle too.

As a side note, I seem to remember a news story a few weeks ago about a MacBook pro running Windows using the hack installation beating out all other Core Duo based Windows-native laptops in a Photoshop speed test.

Those are the kinds of things I listen for when deciding who makes superior hardware.

Apple is all about delivering more bang for your buck when it comes to hardware and with Boot Camp I think they just added another feather to their cap.

^^^^

Exactly!

You just can't compare orange and banana (I didn't mention apple)... Simply because Apple are cute, expensive and incompatible with the rest of the world. PC?s are ugly, cheap and unreliable. With Apple, even the latest version software, is always at least one year old (that why maybe they are more stable). With PC, if you running the latest version, you will also applying tetra byte of batch for a year?

Only extra-terrestrial are buying Apple, and ?followers? buying PC.

The best is to have both? and then you will have to admit the pro and cons of each? But running XP on an Apple? shit this is really ugly.

You just can't compare orange and banana (I didn't mention apple)... Simply because Apple are cute, expensive and incompatible with the rest of the world. PC?s are ugly, cheap and unreliable. With Apple, even the latest version software, is always at least one year old (that why maybe they are more stable). With PC, if you running the latest version, you will also applying tetra byte of patch for a year?

Only extra-terrestrial are buying Apple, and ?followers? buying PC.

The best is to have both? and then you will have to admit the pro and cons of each? But running XP on an Apple? shit this is really ugly.

Running Windows on a Mac will mean the beginning of trouble for Mac users:viruses,spyware,phising etc that can lead to system instability and maybe serious booting problems.

Later this year Apple will be marketing its computers as the only computers in the world that can run both of the world's major operating systems (maybe 3) and no one else will be able to make the same claim. Apple will never license Mac OS X.

Customers will see the following:
Dual Boot (best of both worlds)
beautiful hardware
iPhoto, iMovie, Garageband, iDVD, iWeb
Mac OS X
No viruses/spyware/malware

Hard to resist. Mark my words... Apple's annual mac sales will double within the next two years.

Also, being honest... there is some hardware by Apple that is more expensive part for part (powermac and macbook pro) but if you actually price out a iMac against a comparable dell or HP, you will definitely see that price IS NOT an issue.

Just go try it... I betcha!

I excited because this makes me seriously think of buying my first Mac (I have always wanted one but I also want to play the ocasional computer game.) I think this is a good move by Apple, but it will not create a big shift in the computer market unless Apple changes some of its practices.

I think that this forum has gotten sidetracked with the Mac vs Dell arguement. It should be Mac vs Microsoft. Microsoft is a great business that "tries" to write computer software. Apple is a great designer of usable computers that "tries" to be a business. Apple will not truely 'CHANGE THE WORLD' until they make Mac OS X available on any PC. This will never happen because they are no different than Microsoft, they think they know what is better than the masses.

Great move by Apple. Now you can run best-of-breed Mac-only software as well as some specialized Windows-only software. And the Mac, and only the Mac, can be a dual-purpose tool. Especially since tests of Windows on the Mac show that it is as fast as if not faster than some PCs (more comprehensive tests to come, I'm sure).

The minor price premium (we can argue back and forth if there really is one but it's hard to take into account coupons, and the value of the free OS X/iLife) is worth it because of the flexibility if nothing else, something it seems that the Windows-pushers seem to ignore, most likely because they've never used a Mac. (I use both Windows and Mac every day at work, and a Mac only at home.)

to [j.rocke] very good points. Does the Dell run the Mac OS with iphoto, imovie, and idvd too? The intel Macs are headed to the media room.

I did the same comparison 'Cage Fighter Pretend' did when I was looking for a new system to run my Windows-only based RIP software for my new wide-format printer/cutter. Compared brand-name to brand-name (Dell to Apple); same specs, the Dell was more expensive. I had planned to use Virtual PC to run the RIP but after successfully doing so, found it was too slow for a production environment. Boot Camp just changed that (along with the Intel based Macs). Now, when I am finished work (CorelDRAW 12 and the RIP) I can reboot and go ?play? with all of my GarageBand projects 

Dual-boot doesn't work for me. I need to be able to run Windows side-by-side using VirtualPC or VMWare.

Never owned a Mac, but as soon as VirtualPC or VMWare support Mac on Intel then Apple has a new customer.

Cage fighter:
The proof is in the pudding brotha.

-Vince

AMD X2 3800+ S939 Dual Core processor $349.99CAD

2GB OCZ EL Platinum PC3200 Dual DDR ram with steel ramsinks $245.99CAD with $45 MIR

Seagate Barracuda 300GB 7200RPM 16MB cache HDD $127CAD

LG 16X DVD-Rom $29.25CAD

BenQ DW1650 16X Dual layer DVD-RW +/- writer $44.98CAD

Asus A8N-E S939 Nforce4 Motherboard $96.60CAD

eVGA nVidia Geforce 6800GS video card $243.98CAD

Viewsonic VX2025WM 20" LCD monitor $498.99CAD

Antec Sonata II Case with 480W Power Supply $114.98CAD

Total:

$1,752.74CAD = $1,509.83USD

For $200 less than BOTH systems, you get a:

1) Much more powerful processor
2) Twice the RAM
3) 50GB more hard drive space
4) 2 Drives for cd/dvd copying
5) A better performing chipset (nforce4)
6) A much more powerful video card
7) An equal 20" LCD monitor

I just noticed that speakers and a webcam is missing in my package.

You can get a good logitech webcam for $50USD, and speakers that are miles better than the lousy built in speakers on the imac for $150USD

...?Apple has no desire or plan to sell or support Windows, but many customers have expressed their interest to run Windows on Apple?s superior hardware now that we use Intel processors,? . This is simply marketting strategy and doesn't necessary mean that Apple's track record of producing quality hardware and software would diminish. Apple understands that microsoft has a greater share of the PC market and want a chunk of it. What better way of doing it than offer the bootcamp to entice die hard windows user to experience the glamour and ease of using a MAC. Think about this... why cant you run OS X on Windows?

Wow, most of you PC users are pretty dumb...

Anyway, us Mac users are a minority in this world. We may love our Apples, and try to do everything we can on them, but when sometimes we just have to get dragged into the PC world (kicking and screaming in my case). Because we actually HAVE to use both (and be productive on both - as if XP could ever be productive...), we actually know what we are talking about. Most of you Mac bashers just repeat the same thing over and over, without any experience to back it up. Quit giving us crap if you don't want it back. A cornered dog will bite back.

BTW, Brett, wow man, you are one of the most ill informed people out there.

I'm running osx & xp dual boot fine on my pc notebook! (Just google maxxuss or osx86) loving it & will probably buy a mac when osx 10.5 leopard is out. MS Vista betas are awful in comparison with osx so far.

I made the Switch! I went from long time Mac user to fledgling Windows user. Lessons I learned:

Build it yourself to save money.
Build it yourself to waste time.
Build it yourself to live a life of constant maintainace. (nearly 2 to 3 hours every week, on average.)

Go Windows for Games. (On the Mac only the hits come out, but they are time delayed. Mac users generally don't have to sift through the detritis to find a good game.)

Go Mac for stability. The integrated nature of the Mac generally contributes to a higher level of stability. Less chance for conflicts.

Go Tower to upgrade.

Go Laptop for simplicity.

Comparing the price of a Mac to the price of a PC incorrectly assumes that all variables are equal. We should be sure to take into account our needs and desires. In that case, for some, those who are more concerned with budget and customizability, a custom built PC will likely be preferable, hence always being a better deal. For those who want an elegantly integrated system which requires a minimum of fuss, the Mac will likely be a better value. Our concept of "Good Deal" vs. "Overpriced" is totally dependent upon what value we see in the product. It seems rather silly to argue that Macs are overpriced vs. PCs are overpriced. Both statements are true from a particular perspective.

I will be dropping the $2.5k for a new MacBook Pro because: I have no room for my behemoth of a PC I built 4 years ago; I hate reformating my hard drive every 3 months, as I do now, due to instability; I PERSONALLY hang onto computers till they are past their usable life, so upgrading isn't a concern; It's pretty. :P ; iLife has a lot of appeal; I want to be able to program for both mac and windows. Can't do that on a PC; GAMES GAMES GAMES GAMES;

It strikes me that this release is right in line with Apple's new direction (vs mid '90s): They take a little extra time to ensure an elegant solution. While we have all been scrambling to hack the Intel Macs for the quickest results, Apple (having access to all the code and details of the systems) has been able to pump out a nice no headache solution. I like it.

I doubt that MacOS will ever be licensed again for PCs. I think that would likely result in Apple taking a place similar to Sony or Alienware, as a premium computer maker. By limiting MacOS to Apple hardware, there may be more potential for a 50-80% market share. Wouldn't that be interesting? I wonder who would rise to challenge them then?

Long Live the computer, and the freedom to make it suit you!

I bought a MacBook Pro last night; I woke up this morning and found out that while my Mac was traveling east that Apple had decided to let me put Windows on it. This is an interesting development, but I feel sort of numb because all the emotional craziness I went through in deciding to "make the switch" could have been avoided if they would have made this announcement a few days ago! ;-) By the way... I think describing OSX as "elegant" is appropriate, but it is WAY overused... except for the one guy who thinks it's "eloquent," which made me giggle just a bit! :D

Oh, just another thought: Might bootcamp be aimed not just at windows but also more generically at linux? But wait! Linux shouldn't be a problem anyway, should it? hmm, is it possible that bootcamp is further reaching than Windows, or will it continue to be a targeted feature? Seems more Apple like to make it a general solution that applies to any 3rd party OS than to make something specifically for Windows. hmmm...

Macs

I've been forced to use them a lot as well. From what I have experienced, I work about 3X faster on a PC. Then again, maybe 6 years of intense mac experience is not enough to warm up to the OS.

Seriously, you can't say one is better than the other just because you personally think so.

I'm not saying macs or PCs are better. I'm saying that PCs are cheaper, and that is the unarguable bottom line.

I have a Mac and a PC. My Mac looks nice but I wish it had a light so I could use it as a lamp while I work on my PC. I use my PC because software is readily available for it and it works well on the internet. Macs seem too specialized and no one wants to design software for them. Mac keeps changing designs and OS versions that are not really backward compatible (sounds like MicroSoft), now they are using Intel chips.

Hey, "J. Rocke:" your 'comparable' Dell is missing a few things relative to the MacBook:

- the MacBook is much smaller and lighter
- the MacBook is equipped with 6-pin FireWire, i.e. it supplies power to connected devices
- the MacBook provides a remote control
- the MacBook provides a backlighted keyboard
- the MacBook provides optical digital audio input and output
- the MacBook provides a MagSafe external power connector
- the MacBook includes an integrated iSight video camera

...and probably a lot of other features and functions that your Dell can't provide.

Dell simply doesn't make a notebook that is comparable to the MacBook Pro.

A few additional things your Dell E1505 is missing:

- Bluetooth 2.0 EDR
- integrated gigabit ethernet
- DVI out

...and, as others pointed out, included software, not the least of which is the excellent iLife Suite.

Even if Dell made such a system, it seems to me that it would cost MORE than the MacBook, based on your own numbers...

FILESYSTEM COMPATABILITY:
NTFS -> Mac OS X can read it just fine and copy files from it. Mac OS X cannot write to NTFS at this time.
FAT -> Mac OS X can read and write.
HFS+ (Mac OS X filesystem) -> Need 3rd party software in Windows to read it (e.g. Macdrive).

PRICE COMPARO: DELL / PC
There is no argument to made here. You can get a Dell for substantially less money using the easy-to-find online coupons. Dell's volume allows them to sell at a low price and still make a profit.

OS SUPERIORITY: Mac OS X
I'm a PC user, but I'll be the first to admit that Mac OS X is a superior operating system. It has the power, stability and security of BSD UNIX, but the pretty face and simplicity that Apple is known for. Don't forget that Mac comes with iLife, which affords capabilities that cost extra on a PC.

HARDWARE SUPERIORITY: PC
Macintels have PC hardware, but you are constrained to a few choices. PCs offer nearly limitless harware options and are more easily upgraded in most cases. The Mac strongpoint here is physical appearance. They are elegance personified.

Well I have been a 100% PC user both windows and Linux OS. This is the first time I have considered myself to try a mac!

I say Great job Apple and hopefully you provide at least minimal support like drivers for windows.

ttyl

OSX GUI partitions and repairs on the desktop ANY HD you put in the case. I maintain +35 eMacs at an elementary school. In 1.5 YEARS: ONE dead HD, ONE CRT (PS?) problem a few minor "simple finder" conundrums. THAT'S IT! In the mean time the Wintel machines are confused, (DLL problems, Bad Drivers, networking problems, GET YOUR DAILY VIRUS UPDATES!!!, blah blah blah.)

Wintel does have more freeware options and Adaptec abandoned Apple, etc.

You can get all the second-hand hardware you need (either camp) on Craigslist.

Put NeoOffice on a PPC OS10.3 machine and throw out the old wintel deck if all you do is browse the net and write letters. you can get a 500 MHz PPC Mac for $50.

by the way the speaker on the intel imac are manufactured by bose
north American moron

I was looking at some ofthe IMAC's and I was rather dissapointed. It loos like everything is built inside the montor. I enjoy being able to insert new hardware in my Monarch PC Tower, plus my tower looks pretty cool. If MAC's become configurable like high end pc's, and in the same price bracket, then maybe I'll swap.

I can't believe the CRAP that is being spewed here.

Loyalists make me want to puke, because they have NO concept of good or bad, and will claim their products' crap will smell like Roses.

I am a Network admin for a college - we have Power Mac G4's of 2 different Generations, and Powermac G5's of 2 different Generations.

THEY ARE ALWAYS CRASHING. We even have them specially beefed up for our Graphic Design Program, and they have a Full Final Cut Studio, Adobe Creative Suite 2, and Macromedia Studio loadout - and they CRASH AND CRASH AND CRASH.

IF I SEE ONE MORE F'N PINWHEEL OF DEATH...

The "superior" mac crashes all the live long day when people are trying to work. Our PC's (Ironically Dells), hardly EVER crash.

I will admit - we have more hardware issues with the PCs than the Macs. But the Mac machines are NOT the be all, end all people here are making them out to be.

We ordered 44 new G's. 5 were broken within the first week of arrival. We have Applecare, but it took THREE MONTHS to get a technician to come out and replace the bad parts, and a LOT of back and forth arguing with their Applecare support.

People better wake up - Apple is the new Microsoft. All the issues that people assume with Microsoft and yell at them about; well now Apple is doing the exact same thing.

Far be it from me to tell people what to get - personally, sell your soul to NO ONE and get what does the job for you; as a former long time SEGA console supporter, I learned my lesson, and now am up for the "highest bidder" in terms of performance, price, and use.

Just enough with the lies. Apple hardware is NOT better. If you build a computer and have to administer and maintain it every 3 months or less, you are a $#!tty technician - Mine is going strong on 3 years, and the average life of my built computers is 5 years.

Just say you perfer Apple. The machines use the same video cards now as PC's, and now even the same processors. Don't be a douche.

Just man up, say "I just prefer Apple." Then at least it is your opinion, and I can respect that.

But enough with all the B.S. brand loyalty - its a crock.

Dude--are you proud that you're the administrator of crashing Macs?

Sheesh...replace the RAM in those Macs with modules that are PROPERLY SPEC'D and stop complaining. And in the meantime, learn something about those Macs you're supposed to be maintaining...

William it is an all in one computer, do you know the some p.c. manufacturers make all in one as well I will list a couple Sony, Emachines now gateway and even Acer. FYI They tend to cost more then macs with the same specs and Apple has been successful with them unlike the other ho have tried. If you want a upgradable machine try a Intel powermac 8 gig ram max. You poor half-whited blind P.C. Users BTY I have used both Mac and PC(Winblows ANd LINUX) (Why are people still using WINblows when there is LINUX I Don't Know.

-andymuns

People keep using the the various MS platforms for compatability. Linux does'nt play nice with other os's. On a side note, it kinda odd that linux will run on pretymuch anything, mac/pc, heck even a sonly playstation or dreamcast.

for the FUD above about the stats of apple vs. dell, all intel apple systems ship with DUAL-CHANNEL memory, stock and standard. The guy above is smoking dog turds.

my 2 cents, da enterloper~

I started my PC life with Amstrads running CP/M a precursor to dos !! Moved to Windows and taught Cobol on crappy PCs (which paid my mortgage), got a job using DEC machines where the company had Apples, which was my introduction!! Been bouncing between Apples and PCs (which paid my mortgage) and clearly understand the benefits of both for ease of use and commercial values, i.e. which platform can help you earn more (which paid my mortgage), which one is more pleasing to use (which makes me happy)?

Had five Dell?s in the house until recently, have slowly replaced two with a Mac Mini and a 12? ibook (although not Pentium). I have to use PCs for certain applications, the news from apple is great, I can now think about getting a Mac for my desktop and use both platforms (pay mortgage and be happy)? although not too sure about choosing one or the other at boot-up at the moment, but this will change.

The problem on this forum is that most of you are home users and are either hell-bent on Apple?s or PCs ? that is okay and it?s a good debate. In the real world one has to weigh up the practicalities of both platforms. In my circles I am accused of taking the Apple line, but to be honest If I only had to use PCs my first choice will be Dell ? mainly due to their support structure for Dimension and Latitude and their machines are pretty good ? take the C400 for example its been going on for 4 years? but thanks to Apple I don?t have to make that choice anymore.

Shame I invested in a Viewsonic LCD where as I was contemplating a 20? Apple display, that little thing could have come in handy with an Intel Mini? LOL

Just thought I'd toss in a few comments.

A little background info about me:

I own two PCs. One I built myself, the other is a PC laptop.

Was rather ignorant about apple for a while, but didnt really hate or love them-- just used windows since 3.1, and DOS before that. Wish I would've bought a apple laptop, just cuz they're great for movies, typing, etc.. all the stuff that doesnt involve gaming, and other business apps.

I'm rather ashamed of both sides of the arguement here, really-- both "sides" have thrown on to the table very good (and most likely correct) information-- but instead of cedeing the point of the other person, they just bash, completely destroying either sides case.

It is certainly a most interesting move by apple to allow Windows on an Apple.

But frankly, I'd rather be running windows on a system made for windows and windows only, with my AMD 3800+ X2 overclocked to 2.4 Ghz, 2 GB of Dual Channeled Corsair RAM (PC3200, timing 2-2-2-5), Asus mobo with an nForce4 Ultra chipset, and a X1900 XTX. That is a great system for the price (I'm not gonna post the price here because I'm not trying to brag--those who try and call me on it can jam it up their a** for all I care). I made it myself, which drops the cost across the board.

I'll run OS10 on an apple, with less gaming and business-oriented software, but more media and such.

But anyway. Back to the point. Apples are good for what apples do. PCs are good for what PCs do. Let them stay on their sides-- Apple introducing the ability to run windows on their hardware will not attract those who want to run a more powerful computer for a cheaper price.

*enter more fanboys of both sides*

(for Tony: you can use your Viewsonic or any other LCD monitor with the mac mini as long as it supports DVI).

I applaud the standardization of Apple hardware - because make no mistake, it's now for most intents and purposes, a good looking PC with specialized Apple fimrware.

To those who think it's "better" or really much "different" - get a clue - IT'S NOW THE SAME STUFF!! Do some research about who is making the chipsets and components for any of the Intel based macs, and you'll get the picture (yes - a company whose name begins with "I" factors quite heavily).

As an IT professional, my experience is that Mac's (even if they can now now run XP) just aren't quite flexible enough. It's laughable to me reading a post about how new Apple macs can now run "3" operating systems. Nearly any modern PC can run DOZENS of operating systems.

For example, I might consider one when I can (if I need to) install or multi-boot 64-bit XP, Windows Server 2003 R2 and VmWare ESX on one. As is, I already use VMWare workstation to bring up Linux and legacy versions of Windows, and dual boot to bring SCO Open Server (to support a customer with a vertical application).

IMO, Apple is often more about "shine" than "substance" when it comes to their PCs. Anyone who has used Macs for a long time (before OSX) knows what I am talking about - they started with 68k CPUs, moved to PowerPC and now on to x86, alienating a lot of folks who invested a lot of $ in sofwtare with each new generation (yes, still true, regardless of various incarnations of emulation which is/was a compromise at best).

I really think they can only get away with re-inventing themselves like that because their market share is not so overwhelming as to cause a mass exodus when they decide to jump ship to the CPU / technology du jour.

Even now, I support users who have to reboot their OSX boxes to run OS9 apps (or even just to print, because they don't have an OSX printer driver!).

And regarding crashes - My experience is that XP is rock solid, except when compromized by spyware, etc. XP is a target for viruses/spyware because it has 90% of the world's market share - don't fall into a simple minded trap thinking that OSX (and other flavors of Unix) can't be or aren't rootkittable and hackable. If OSX had 90% market share, guess what OS the script kiddies would tarket?

I manage business PC's running XP that are left on (and are still on and running fine) for 6 months+, and are only rebooted following updates. Ditto Windows server machines (uptime between uptimes at least 6 months).

Regarding the price war: Apple's hardware is in fact now more cost competitive, because their designs are more mainstream, but they simply CAN'T compete with Dell, HP, etc., - simple economic reality - they don't have the volumes, and consequently don't expect them to be quite as cheap

(oh - and the guy that was talking 'student' discount - take a look at DELL OUTLET - from my own ordering experience, most are brand new machines [same warranty, etc] - you can get REALLY fast PC's, for example, DUAL proc XEON 3.4 with 15k U360 SCSI drives, high-end CAD capable video, 1-2GB RAM, for less than $2k).

"As an IT professional, my experience is that Mac's (even if they can now now run XP) just aren't quite flexible enough"

As an IT professional, my experience is that Apple's new machines are the most flexible--and reliable--computers available.

"they started with 68k CPUs, moved to PowerPC and now on to x86, alienating a lot of folks who invested a lot of $ in sofwtare with each new generation"

For every one of those transitions, Apple ALWAYS provided the means to efficiently run legacy software.

"I really think they can only get away with re-inventing themselves like that because their market share is not so overwhelming as to cause a mass exodus when they decide to jump ship"

The exact opposite: there's always a tremendous incentive (and pressure) to move to the safer and far more popular platform. Why do
you think a mass exodus from Apple to PC hasn't happened despite the many transitions Apple's hardware and OS have gone through? Here are a couple of hints: Apple has ensured that the transitions are mostly painless and that the improvments offered by the changes were enticing.

"I support users who have to reboot their OSX boxes to run OS9 apps (or even just to print, because they don't have an OSX printer driver!)"

You call yourself an "IT professional?" You should be ashamed of yourself: Mac OS X natively supports (and includes) GIMP which provides drivers for THOUSANDS of printers. There's no excuse.

"don't fall into a simple minded trap thinking that OSX (and other flavors of Unix) can't be or aren't rootkittable and hackable"

And don't fall into the simple-minded trap of disregarding the fact that Mac OS X is INHERENTLY more secure by design and default configuration. Again, learn something about that which you would disdain...

"Apple's hardware is in fact now more cost competitive, because their designs are more mainstream, but they simply CAN'T compete with Dell, HP, etc."

Apple can and does compete very well on price. Just make sure you're comparing equally equipped systems. OTOH, Apple doesn't provide 'bottom feeder' systems. It's apparently not a market it's interested in addressing.

As I Windws software developer One thing will be new for me: Now I have one more hardware - OS combination to test upon.

for a media professional with an rsi that the intel mac can run windows seems to be a god send. i need to get dragon, because unfortunatley apple is way behind the pc world when it comes to voice dictation. this could solve my problems. this is really is wonderful for the disabled!

everyone here is freely giving their opinions on windows working almost natively on a mac, but has anyone actually tried it yet? can someone give any info as to how it actually works. so far, what problems you have come across, and how you solved them. and if anyone has used dragon 8 on an intel mac with boot camp, could you share your experience.

For those commenting that now they can use multiple operating systems on one computer. they've been able to do so for as long as partitions have been around. all you would have to do is make multiple partitions and then install one OS on each. i've had up to 14 OS's on one hard drive at a time. as for this utility, utilitys like it have been floating around for quite some time this is just the first time that its really been recognized.

Right, kdawg. However, this is the first time you've been able to run the two major desktop OSs natively on one hardware platform.

Very cool...

As a web developer this news is very interesting indeed.

The task of testing applications on multiple Operating systems just got a bit easier.

I guess a new Intel based MAC is now on my shopping list!

MAC GO MAC! Love the design, and love the quality...

Just bought the Mac Mini Solo Intel. Used to be a hard core Apple proponent, have bought maybe about 7-8 Macs over the last 20 years...even have a 512k.

I am not a salesman nor a Mac deadhead. Anyone who really is objective will quickly arrive at the conclusion that the Mac IS overpriced and while it is packaged well, is slower and just as prone to crashes and software issues. Bootcamp appears to be a great way to get the look and field, but you have to have XP SP 2 and a full install disk to make it happen. Well, I dont want to pay $200 for this. I cant even do the upgrade, because there is no way to eject the Windows disk from the Mac MIni internal drive...and yeah, I tried the external CD, and the Mac wont recognize it... so while I thought it was a great concept, and still want to like the mac...logical and rational purchasers cannnot conclude that the mac is better and cheaper.

Anyone who is really objective will compare machines that are matched feature for feature. When one does that, one discovers that Macs are competitively priced. Add to that the fact that Macs have repeatedly been shown to be faster, more stable, and more secure.

OTOH, Apple does not supply bottom-of-the-barrel models.

If you have an install disc for a version of Windows prior to SP2, you can slipstream the SP2 update into a new Windows install disc you can easily prepare on your own. The instructions for doing so are readily available on various sites.

Well-informed buyers with open minds will conclude that current Macs are great values.

This is a step in the right direction by Apple - though it will help Apple only in increasing its sales, and cross-platform users - neither PC industry nor PC users (nor Mac users in general).

[I do not understand the silly, puerile "war" between Mac and PC users.

Mac users should be thankful of the PC platform - its presence has kept the price of Macs down, otherwise they would have been forced to pay several times more! Also Apple is spending money on research just to keep ahead of PCs in technology and sophistication - without PCs in the background Macs would not have advanced as much. Mac users do not have to emphasize that Mac is superior - any cross-platform user knows that.

PC users should be thankful of the Macs - Windows would not be where it is without Mac OS - Microsoft is continuously trying to reach Mac-OS sophistication. Without Mac platform Microsoft would have been still selling DOS!]

I'm a coder (student) considering a MacBook purchase over a regular Wintel notebook (used pc's all my life due to parental influence only) and I believe that the prospect of developers dropping the OSX version of their software to be inversely true, if more people switch to this platform then more people will become 'enlightened' shall we say to the advantages of Macs (Form and Function - mentioned above), the idea of 'best of both worlds' (Mac + Games) makes Macs better value for money over PC's.
The demand for Mac versions of traditional windows software will increase and develop a temporary niche for startup companies that will then explode into popularity as the enterprise giants play catchup, with the possibility of 50/50 market share for Macs/Wintels or perhaps even more in Apple's favour...(people get the idea eventually)
Ignore the Dell salesman, he's insecure with a low self-esteem so feels the need to put down a competitor that is a direct threat to his employer, ofcourse 'ladiesman' is going to be baisd...

Okay, I can't resist.
I used to be a Mac hater. Then OSX came around. Wow. Excellnt job Apple.

But being a Linux person I can't let this go:

And complete the offereing by releasing OSX for the PC! Offer the legions of folks who are desperate enough to wrestle with the ?little Unix designed by Windows programmers to look like Windows? called Linux (so much for innovation! ;-)

Linux is not the little unix. It runs on more than 70% of the top supercomputers. More than 60% of the world's web servers run Linux, and even though I admit OSX is probably better for most desktop users than linux, there are more Linux users than OSX users.

Linux was not written by windows programmers. Linux was initially derived (in concept) from minix.

Innovation? Linux can be console, give you a user experience of Windows (3.1/98/XP), MacOS (X, and before), Solaris, and almost anything else you can think of and probably some stuff you can't imagine.

OSX is a little less innovative in this regard. They reused a lot of linux/gnu/bsd based stuff, and probably got the idea when linux was rapidly gaining on Mac's marketshare regardless of it's "difficulty" and unfriendlyness.

The interface and the user experience, kudos to Apple again, well done. But as an operating system it runs on technology from the 70's and that's not a bad thing. So does Linux. But in this case it was Apple saying "Me too! Me too! I want in."

Apple could be a linux killer on the desktop? Perhaps. The user interface is nice. Too bad I don't want to use it. I know I can hack other stuff in, but then I would be porting linux stuff to OSX.

OSX is nice as a desktop OS, but it has a long way to go, and unfortunately if you give it the flexability of linux you lose the stability/ease of use advantage of OSX. It's a trade off.

As for the current move.. I blame microsoft pressure. I doubt jobs is happy. Microsoft owns almost half of apple, and bill gates personally owns like 10%. Microsoft runs apple. Don't fool yourself.

I am a recording engineering student. I use applications like Digidesign Pro-tools, Propellerhead Reason, Apple Logic and a host of others. When i first came into the school, i was told that Macs were the way to go because of the software. I bought a Macbook pro and now have windows installed. I have found that the software i use regularly runs BETTER in windows XP by a long shot. Pro tools and Reason together in a ReWire environment actually need less memory and run smoother on the same hardware. Even little things like the window the app runs in look better and tend to be nicer to work with than in OS X. I now have about 75% of my hard drive dedicated to XP and aside from a few Apple driver problems (you'd think they could figure out how to have a ctrl-click input not command-click, especially when the control key works) it works fine. I now know how many more macs i will buy, none. Now all we have to do is find these virus writers and inject them all with aids and herpes.

Okay, for the price of an apple computer, you can get the same or better for pc. Virues,spyware for windows...hmm.. don't log in as administrator lol.

Funny anyone seen that commercial.. hi I"m a mac .and i'm a pc? lol

They finally gave in. It was about time. While mac was there being "different" Pc were making all the money. Now mac wants Windows.

hmm...
Sega vs Snes
VHS vs Beta?

samething
lol