Why Can't PCs Make Good First Impressions?

I don't want to be a Mac zombie either but I also remember being refreshingly relieved when I turned on my Pbook for the first time. No half-a-dozen ISP sign-up icons, no two versions ago apps, and none of the accompanying pop-ups to buy the current version.

Interesting article about the shameless advertising Microsoft is doing. How ironic that at the end of the blog I see this:
http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/idg.us.pcw.blogs;pos=billboard;tile=35;sz=336x280;ord=123456789?http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/idg.us.pcw.blogs;pos=billboard;tile=35;sz=336x280;ord=123456789?http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/idg.us.pcw.blogs;pos=billboard;tile=35;sz=336x280;ord=123456789?http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/idg.us.pcw.blogs;pos=billboard;tile=35;sz=336x280;ord=123456789?http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/idg.us.pcw.blogs;pos=billboard;tile=35;sz=336x280;ord=123456789?

It's the difference between the two cultures. One goes for cool and function the other goes for geeky and geeky; and the attitudes of each come across loud and clear.

That's why you make sure the system comes with an OS disc (not the dumb mfgs recovery disc). Format, reload. Problem solved. Of course, it would be much nicer if the computer came without all those preset configurations that mfgs think everyone will absolutely love. And I'm sure that mfgs get paid by software companies to put icons on their standard desktop.

Heh, heh. This is actually one reason why non-Mac products are significantly lower cost. When mfgs. cut the margins so slim they need the extra income (or reduced costs) of advertising. I like lower cost and even shop at Wal-Mart rather than Apple or Neiman-Marcus.

The author clearly is clueless about the PC market. PC side is so competitive, therefore you can get your feature rich Toshiba for a LOT less than a comparable model in Mac. One of the reasons is that the manufacturers get kickbacks from softare vendors for installing their products on the laptop with those nagging messages. No one likes it, but you can easily remove it by removing the programs you don't like, or format and reinstall the OS. This is the cost of buying a less expensive laptop. At least this is ONLY a quarterly popup. Try Symantec Anti-Virus nagging message, it pops up everytime you restart your system and it takes up ALL of your resources. This is polite compared to Symantec's stuff.

hahaha, my second post. I totally forgot Mac doen't even have a tablet system...

"No one likes it, but you can easily remove it by removing the programs you don't like, or format and reinstall the OS."

Uh...no. Some of the "bloatware" can not be completely removed (think AOL). And Toshiba doesn't include a recovery disk, much less an OS disk. If you want a recovery disk you have to use a software wizard to make your own, and even then it includes all the bloatware.

I recently got a notebook PC from a local startup PC shop. I bought the ACER Aspire 3002LCI that was on display. The Acer was packaged with the recovery CD's which conatined some usefull Acer software and windows XP home. The norton software was not preinstalled on the system but a Norton AntiVirus 2005 CD was included with the bundle. That CD is now a coaster.
Now either Acer was kind enough to not have alot of junk preinstalled or the guy who runs the PC shop was kind enough to remove the junk software before putting it up on display.
This is my first notebook and so far I've had a good first impression. Now my HP PC is a different story...

Does anyone else notice a problem with the width of this page using Firefox?

Yeah. Layout is all fudged up in FF

"Does anyone else notice a problem with the width of this page using Firefox?"

Yeah, it's the graphic that Harryboy embedded.

Oh, and, the idea that "some "bloatware"" cannot be completely removed is not entirely accurate. It's just harder than the vendors feel the average person would be willing to endure.

I don't think it's the image it's the URL in post #2.

Its like the lines didnt wrap, not sure if it was issue with URL

isn't it annoying when a page like this isn't coded for viewing on Firefox, even though probably all the editors and contributors to this site use firefox as their default browser?

But I see what you mean, when I fired up the old banger (internet explorer), I have the same experiences when buying new PC's but the companies always refuse to give you the OS disc because they are stingy.

I'm so sick of promo-ware installed in new computers. I just bought a laptop and it took me half a day to get rid of useless software and advertisements that I didn't want. Most of the software that came preinstalled was so useless and incompatible it was worthless - like MS works....

i think if i saw the phrase "Quarterly Pop-up" anywhere on my system I'd have to shoot myself in the head. >_<

microsoft windows sucks! Watch out for Mac Intel!

I recently setup a new Compaq for a customer when his five year old one died. I've never liked all the bloatware that comes with retail PC's, but this thing was ridiculous. It took me 15 minutes to get through all the ads, offers, trial apps, and Compaq apps that run on top of WinXP. When I finally got through it all, Symantec's Internet security with a 60 day trial didn't even work right. I had to uninstall it and load a corporate version I run on my PC's. On a side note, my first Mac, an iMac G5 was a breeze to setup. So streamlined and simple. I was up and running in no time. I doubt I will ever buy a PC again. Not that they cant be great machines, but Win XP and the other software that comes preloaded on them is just junk. The out of box experience for PC's is a mess, and I agree, they don?t make a very good first impression.

I also bought a Toshiba Satellite notebook (From Best Buy,
I *had* to see a similiar model in action prior to purchase,
was very impressed) and I have not had any problems like that at all.

As a habit here is what I do on any computer I aquire prior
to connecting it to internet:

insert my latest "apps" cd & at a minimum...

install zonealarm, disable XP firewall
install firefox & adblocker (first domain to block is *.doubleclick.net)
install adaware & spybot, update and run them both

remove any unwanted software (AOL, Office XP 2003 demo, etc)

for a day or two it is a bit of a pain to add / block unwanted
processes in zonealarm or unwanted urls in firefox, but
you only do it once.

I will probably remove Mcafee once my updates stop working
in favor of AVG and / or clamAV...

For desktops I usually do a fresh install.

Wow, my thumb is worn out from scrolling back and forth to read this page.

Insert Knoppix 3.8 CD and power on
After boot enter knoppix-installer
Wait 10 minutes.
Advertising, worms, viruses, popup bubbles, democrapware problems solved

The problem with this page in FireFox is the ad code helpfully posted by GF at the head of the page. It contains no character spaces, so the text doesn't wrap.

Not sure what's so hard about getting this page (or any other) to render properly in Firefox. Lucky for me, it worked fine in Opera. No need to fire up IE if you got it!

Anyway, getting on topic. This is really where Apple sets themselves apart. Some people say, "Yeah, it's the same commodity stuff from China, Taiwan, etc., just in a nicer package." Guess what? The nicer packaging makes all the difference. Even if it is a commodity product, it sure doesn't feel like one when you unpack it. As for the price premium (real or perceived)? Feels justified from the moment you first power it on. That attention to detail is just about everywhere.

But most PCs? I wind up rolling my own recovery discs because of this crap. Shave down a fully-patched Windows with nLite, bundle Firefox and Thunderbird, etc. Lots of work, but worth it. I just wish it were unnecessary.

A previous poster mentioned it's a difference in approach between Macs and PCs. I agree, except on the nature of that difference. The first part about Macs going for the cool factor? Can't really argue with that. But the bit about PCs being targeted towards geeks? Yeah, maybe when it comes to raw specifications. But really, it's all about price. In the PC world, it's ok to cut corners if it moves units out the door. And what's cut? User experience.

I like how you guys actually think similarly spec'd macs actually cost more...

Oh and any 'bargain' computer won't come with an OS disk

If you didn't need the 'tabletness' of the computer, you really should have gotten an iBook or PowerBook...

or a 10-year-old Newton

This page is irritating in Firefox. Why hasn't this been fixed yet? Doesn't a place like the "IDG Network" have a slew of web developers/designers working round-the-clock, 24/7?

And what is up with this column, Techlog? The author is absolutely not techie. Here are some supporting details:

1. The Laptop
Ahem, who goes to the store to buy a laptop. If PC World really wanted to help the consumer, they should help the consumer research the computer online. These days, how can one make a completely conscientious buying decision without frst having researched the price!, reviews, specs and uses? Noob

2. The Software
I wasn't aware that computers today came without trail versions of Microsoft Office. Nuff said... And why knock capitalism at it's best? A full version of an application should not include any pop-up about for-cost upgrade applications. One must admit though, that $99 for 3 titles is a darn good deal, maybe even for a student. Noob.

3.) Oobe
If the pages in the middle were 10 or 20 thicker, you'd be complaining about all the reading. It's a Mac!, Consider it a favor. 99.91% of Americans enjoy the magic of discovery, and turn a new computer on before reading the manual (the Quick Setup Poster is an exception). Get to work!/play. Noooob.

In closing, I'd like to say that I like PC World as it has been around a long time. Even in my very early days of computing, I have relied on PC World for knowledge I couldn't have gotten elsewhere. But this column... noob.

And this brings up another point, if I may. You people with your money, who can even buy a Tablet PC, oughta be thankful that you can. Cause I sure can't. If I had a Tablet PC, I'd be writing more about all the fun things I'm planning on doing with it or the elements of the user experience that matter. You people and your money/credit... noob.

Are you hiring?

With both Mac and Wintel PC hardware being so similar now, there is very little difference in the functionality of both machines. The main difference in hardware is that Apple is charging twice as much for their horsepower. Working both in support of and doing production work on both systems, I have become fully versed in both Mac OS and Windows of all versions. As a technically minded person, I find XP Pro the more highly elegant and fully functional operating system compared to Mac OS. I find the Mac file management system to be clumsy and counterintuitive. However, given the same horsepower and applications, there is very little real difference in the actual operation of either machine under OS X and XP Pro. When Apple threw out Mac OS and adopted UNIX with a Mac OS looking front end, they solved the lack of a multitasking environment that I found to be the main problem with their OS. (continued...)

Hi Autonomous,
Are you saying MAC OS X isn't better than Windows XP? I personally haven't been able to try it, though I've been advising one client who asked me about Macs, that I recommend he get one simply because of MAC OS X's "revolutionary" interface and method of managing files. Could you tell me more about what you don't like about it? Although, I'm sure the columnist could (inside joke). Hiring?

It is a strange myth that PCs come with a great deal of marketing hooks installed with the operating system. This is false. If you have marketing hooks on your desktop, it was installed by the manufacturer or distributor of the machine. It's a myth that Macs don't get viruses. It is simply hard to distribute them on a system with less than 10% of the market share. I personally have never had virus problems on my own machine simply because I am a technician. Generally, viruses, spyware and adware can be avoided if you use your head. There are many persistant myths about both systems perpetrated by the uninformed. The crux of matter can be summed up in one statement. Apple is the computer designed for people with more money than brains. I call those people artists. Peace out.

Hi Willie,

Things I don't like about OS X are the expense, the minor incompatibilities with my Windows network, font issues, clumsy file management system (compared to a classic file tree system), and incompatibilities with legacy applications.

I was stunned to find out that Apple is going to start using Intel processors in their machines. I'm wondering if Apple is possibly starting a move to get out of PC manufacturing altogether and stick with the more lucrative markets such as their iPod.

Also, I hate that they put an i in front of all their product names. ;-)

But in reality, the actually use of both machines, considering the user is fully versed in that OS, is not much different.

>for a day or two it is a bit of a pain to add / block unwanted processes in zonealarm or unwanted urls in firefox, but you only do it once.

>There are many persistant myths about both systems perpetrated by the uninformed.

It IS the uninformed that is buyng these cheaper machines. It IS the uninformed that is not aware how to prevent spyware to get on their machines. It IS the uninformed that unknowingly propagates viruses. It IS the uninformed that expects a (any) computer to just work and not harass them. It IS the uninformed that do not have the money to go elsewhere and thus are bullied into a bad user experience.

I AM informed and have chosen to spend my time working, rather that fixing my gear. I use an iBook.

Well, of course ... computers aren't made by people, they're made by engineers. But I woudl like a little timer in my PC. A timer that I can set for, say, 15 minutes. Maybe two separate timers in one. I still use the little Calendar.exe from my old Windows 95 and it's one of the best things around.

Using the PC (or a Mac) is not only about sorting photos, identify theft, and Windows crashes. It's also about waiting for the pie to finish baking, or surfing the Web until I have to go pick up Julie at the train.

Here's what I do... Grab my Linux install disks, format the drive and install. No ads, no Micro$oft, no cost, no problem.

Heh ;)

Just read the one guy's comment about his setup regimen... instal zonealarm, install adblocker, install adaware, install spybot, disable XP firewall, uninstall crap...

So funny! I actually used Windows for years and years. Had the same kinda habits. And I still reformatted and clean installed everything every few months.

Bought a Mac 3 years ago because of BSD (and the nice hardware). Never been bothered with any ads, spyware, viruses, etc. Only reformatted once (when upgrading to Panther). Runs as quick as the day I bought it... and with all the nice updates, it tends to run even faster.

Don't want to sounds like one of those preachy Mac fans, but after switching from Windows, there is SERIOUSLY a HUGE improvement. I'd never go back to MS again.

Autonomous,

What are you talking about when you say "clumsy" file management system in Mac OS? Are you aware that there are three views one can use to navigate the directory structure in the Aqua GUI and that one of them--list view--could be described as "classic file tree system." However, because you are short on details, I can't say for sure one way or the other.

At any rate, having worked in a Windows shop for 4 years and with many versions of Mac OS, I disagree with your assessment. Mac OS GUI directory structure navigation has more options and is much more elegant and feature-rich than what I've experienced using Windows. The consistency of commands across applications means that keyboard shortcuts are easier to remember. Cut-and-paste works across *all* applications, including the GUI. Find-by-typing allows one to quickly locate files and applications in densely populated sections of the alphabet. For example, to distinguish "DivX" from "Dashboard," "Dictionary," "DVD Player," and "DVD Studio Pro," one can simply type "D-I-V" and the OS will select the appropriate file.

Such features combined with the ability to manipulate files using (in my case) UNIX tools (BASH, grep, ls, etc.) make Windows file manipulation and navigation seem primitive and clumsy.

Again, if you could be more specific in what you mean by "classic file tree system," I might be able to concede some of the point. My guess, for now, is that you don't really understand Mac OS X very well.

Frankly, I don't understand why anyone would buy a brand name PC, when, now it is so easy to simply build your own. A little more expensive, yes, but all the headaches of pre-installed crapware are not there. I love my XP Pro machine, and I built it myself. It runs exactly the way I want it to run. No viruses, no adware, no spyware, nothing. It's great. I've used OS X, and it's nice, but not really so impressive that I must change. This whole debate over XP or OS X, to me, is stupid. Until Apple can bring the cost of their computers down to Average Joe's price range, I'll happily continue using my virus free, spy/adware free, hardly ever crashing PC.

The page works fine in firefox, and is actually very properly rendered.

The problem is with post#2....the url has no breaks in it and is forcing the thabel not to wrap. The designers of the site should update ths sytem to not allow very large one word posts.

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I bought a Panasonic tablet. The documentation was a little better than the Toshiba (it does tell you how to turn it on), but it still doesn't tell you anything about how to use the tablet OS.

Regarding your complaint, I'm a southpaw too. Go to Control Panel -> Tablet and Pen Settings. Under Handedness (is that even a real word?) and Menu Location select Left-Handed. It makes all the menus & dropdowns and such pop up on the other side so they're not covered by your hand. It makes all the difference.

You can also change the pen settings from there. I recommend getting a pen with a barrel button, if the Toshiba didn't come with one, and setting the button as the right click then disable the press and hold right click. Otherwise it will drive you crazy.

This isn't about garbage pre-installed on a cheap machine, but the piles of trash that a buyer has to deal with on an expensive machine. Toshiba seem to be a bad one, which is a pity because their hardware is good.

I've not had a chance to try Mac OSX yet - I hear it is very nice, and that from people who like me found earlier versions of the Mac OS to be incredibly bad - unstable and with the most unintuitive GUI I've ever encountered (I was most disappointed after I'd kept hearing how great the Mac was). If Apple made a tablet I'd give it serious consideration, but they don't. Having to re-buy my software is another disincentive.

If the Mac was the most common user system it would also be the one constantly bombarded by attacks. Microsoft have been lax for sure, but they also have to contend with attacks being focussed on their software because it is the most used.

It actually isn't all that easy to just install a clean OS onto a laptop, especially a Tablet PC.

Things like copy, paste are consistent in all my Windows software.

SC Has got the right idea. I also built my own PC but installed Linux (Fedora Core 3!!!!) on it. Problem is, now that I don't have to run Norton systemworks, Mcaffee antivirus,
Adaware, Spybot, X-setup, Registry Mechanic, and Zone Alarm, I have too much time on my hands!!!! Now I have to do some real work on my computer!!!!! Help!!!!
LOL Im being facetious but I hope you catch my drift. It's ridiculous how much 3rd party software you need to keep a Windows system running.
Oh and I do still use Windows.... To play video games.

^ for a desktop I will also agree. It's OS is dependant of it's primary function,
linux is best for firewall / server functions however just because I now run linux
or OSX the need for network integration does not go away (unless you *really*
only have one PC in your house, directly connected to broadband modem)

For linux (and mac I assume) installs also need to set up the repository info
and run all updates (important for security), all mulitmedia codecs
and software, preferred CD / DVD burning software, clamav / spamassassin
(if you run a mail server)

I can't recall having any OS I have installed without setting up and configuring
updates and installing other software. Solaris (& HPUX for that matter)
is probably the worst, there are soo many GNU packages that are included
with linux / mac Solaris is lacking in that respect... Windows would have to
be next in line, following by linux and finally macs if there was a "most painful
install experience" list!

Notebooks (to be on topic again) are a bit of a pain to get 100% working under linux,
too many hardware incompatiblity with ACPI, network drivers, battery monitor
becomes an issue at times... if you are lucky you have 100% compatible hardware
and are willing to make the necessary configuration excellent, 99% of the time
it comes with a XP install included in the price so hey why not just use it...

I guess it is okay to complain about the PC user experience. The exeprience is bad partly because of sites like PC World that assault your machines with all sorts of useless cookies, trying to monitor your online behavior, with heavy scripts on the pages, pushing their print magazine on your face. Yet they complain about how shameless MS advertising is. If the PC user experience is bad as you claim, you have some share in the blame.

This page is like 10 feet wide on Safari, i'm having a hard time here!

I would like to leave a really good post in reply
to all this, but whoever coded the page didn't

code correctly for line/word breaks... therefore

it's a major pain trying to read all the "I love

mac" and "I hate Microsoft" fanatical posts.

Mac user must have set this up...

no, it must have been a Win user who set it up...

10th reply down- ya the width on this page is weird using firefox. As for icons, they are usally so easy to remove that I don't know why anybody's complaining. Just highlight the ones you want, right click remove

What really grinds my axe,
is that the link to the special price,
http://order.microsoft.upgrade.com/hrdpremium
Doesn't Work!

yes.this is my site http://yasamohuel.goldenelf.com/buspar/buspar_dosage_forum.html Thanks.