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Tuesday, November 09, 2004 2:57 PM PT Posted by Harry McCracken
Browser Wars: The View From Microsoft
Today's the day that the Mozilla Foundation's Firefox browser officially turns 1.0. Here at PC World, we chatted this afternoon with one of the folks behind another browser you may have heard of: Gary Schare, a Microsoft director of product management with responsibility for Internet Explorer. The topic of discussion: Microsoft's view of the browser wars now that Windows XP SP2's version of IE has been out for awhile and Firefox is officially shipping.On the subject of security--always front-and-center when you?re talking IE--Schare said that he?s proud of the version that?s part of Windows SP2, and said that it has under-the-surface improvements that make it a fundamentally more secure browser than its predecessors. Historically, of course, security problems with IE have been seemingly endless, and those with Firefox and its antecedents have been few. But Schare says that in the past six months, IE and Firefox have been "even" in terms of the vulnerabilities reported by security firm Secunia?"and that?s pre-SP2." According to him, Secunia has identified only two variants of one security hole in SP2's IE.
Most of the changes in SP2's version of IE relate to security issues, but it's clear that lots of folks are still interested in new browser tricks and have looked beyond IE to find them. Turns out that some of those folks are in Redmond--Schare startled us by saying that the browser he's been using most often is Maxthon, a built-on-top-of-IE browser that has tabbed windows and a bunch of other additional features.
What, an IE product manager using an IE alternative? Microsoft has been oft-criticized for being slow to deliver features such as pop-up blocking (which finally showed up in SP2's version of IE) and tabbed browsing. But Schare says that the existence of IE variants such as Maxthon and IE-specific plug-ins lessens the need for Microsoft to build everything into the browser itself. He maintains that Firefox, too, is more interesting as a platform for add-ins and customizations than as a plain-vanilla browser.
One big reason to stick with IE, according to Schare, is its compatibility--the fact that a lot of Web sites tend be written to work well in it, and that many applications require it. He's right that some useful browser enhancers are built specifically for IE, such as the Google Toolbar (though much of its functionality can be replicated in other browsers). And it's equally true that many businesses still run custom applications that were designed specifically for IE--heck, we use some of them to run this very site.
But Schare acknowledged that the world is already becoming less IE-centric: "If you?re talking a new site being started now, it would absolutely be written to [Web] standards" rather than using proprietary IE technologies," he said.
Still think IE is looking a tad long in the tooth? Schare reports that Microsoft's game plan remains to release the next major IE upgrade as part of Windows' "Longhorn" version in 2006. That sounds like a long wait, especially since IE has changed so little in recent years and browsers like Firefox and Opera are evolving rapidly.
You might think that Microsoft could reinvent IE overnight if it chose to--it certainly did in the mid-1990s--but Schare says that?s not so: "If resources were unlimited, we?d deliver a new version of the browser every day. We have to prioritize." (After our talk with Schare, one of my colleagues mused that he was still puzzled why a tiny company like Maxthon's MySoft Technology seemed able to prioritize its way to a better, more feature-rich IE more quickly than Microsoft has.)
As for what we?ll see in Longhorn?s version of IE, details are still sketchy: "We plan to put a lot of interesting features in the version of IE in Longhorn," says Schare, "but the key is making them useful and avoiding a cluttered interface." Pointing to recent beyond-the-browser innovations such as RSS feeds, he also says that IE won?t necessarily be where the most interesting new Web stuff happens: "We'll put plumbing in Longhorn to build other Web apps."
What's a browser user to make of all this? Even though IE's market share has dwindled a teensy bit in recent months--it?s still north of 90 percent--Microsoft still seems to be resting on its, er, laurels, or at least acting like a company with a monopoly that it doesn?t have to work very hard to defend. Which is how it's acted for years, ever since Netscape's attempt to undo that monopoly in court failed. But who--other than a few smart browser geeks--ever guessed that Netscape would rise from the ashes? That's what's happened with Firefox, and the very fact that Microsoft felt obligated to talk up IE today shows that it's at least paying attention.
Me, I'm an optimist: Instinctively, I still think that in the wake of Firefox's inroads, Microsoft will decide that the world needs an IE update that adds actual new functionality--as opposed to security fixes--before 2006. That would be good for everybody...especially the millions who still use IE and won't be switching anytime soon.
For the time being, I?d recommend downloading Firefox and giving it a whirl--nearly everyone I?ve met who?s done so has come away a happy customer. And if you?re still inclined to stick with IE--or even if you aren?t, since it?s so tied into Windows that you can?t simply opt out of using it altogether--it?s clearly time to move to Windows XP SP2 and get the benefits of the new IE's better security and nicely-integrated pop-up blocker. (Confession time: I?m using SP2 at work but am still a backwards laggard at home--but I?m going to upgrade any moment now, I promise?)
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I installed firefox and cannot access web site dropdown menus.In IE this is done by pausing mouse over menu heading. I had same problem with Mozilla.Do I need something extra on my computer to fix this,I am running XP home.
Mozilla browsers like firefox process some html/javascript/dhtml code differently than IE. Some companies like adding little "special effects" to the website like drop down menus on mouse-overs but don't want to invest the time to make sure the script is compatible across both IE and Mozilla browsers. If a feature works with IE but not Firefox, there is nothing you can do about it. Use Maxthon or Avant Browser and you will get most of Firefox's benefits but on a browser that will correctly render code tested for IE.
Or you could politely email the webmaster of the offending site and let them know that it doesn't work correctly in Mozilla-based browsers, probably because of proprietary IE code that they're using. Gently remind them that Firefox is gaining market share and it would be prudent for them to make sure their site is standards-compliant and will work with all major browsers.
A small note re the Google Toolbar in IE: I used to use this, regretted the absence of it in Firefox, but soon discovered a custom userchrome.css setting that widens the Google search window in Firefox.
For the benefit of others, you can create the following userchrome.css file in the chrome subdirectory of your profiles directory. Works like a charm. I'm indebted to the Mozilla forum user who provided this:
/* Make the Search box flex wider */
#search-container {
-moz-box-flex: 1000 !important;
}
#searchbar {
-moz-box-flex: 1000 !important;
One thing that people cannot notice, is that Firefox manage it's memory better than IE in old OS (win98, winME). I have been monitoring my computer's memory and Firefox did handle better than IE.
i'm sure this article didn't stop anyone downloading and using firefox 1.0. what a load of crap!
You can download Maxthon here:
http://maxthon.tarapages.com/plugins/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=588
scott? hmmm, I wonder is that who I think it is.
I will try firefox 1.0 as well as Maxthon to see who earns my respect more.
Come on, people. Sure, get Maxthon - Stick with the glaring security holes and massive memory usage. Try Firefox, use tabs for a week, and TRY to go back to opening a new damn window everytime you want a new page.
I've been using FireFox beta for over 6 months now, and have not had a single virus, or browser crash since. I'll never go back to IE. Ever. Tabs, security, 95% of IE features, the ability to customize and use skins.. It's a no brainer... and it's not using any MS or IE code, like Maxthon.
Maxthon hardly uses any memory and IE's security holes are plugged up, so any problem IE has had, Maxthon won't have. Besides, Maxthon has more features like a bunch of skins, plugins, and a great pop-up blocker w/Windows SP2 pop-up blocker built into it. It can definetly match Firefox for speed and it can obviously render pages that are strictly IE, which Firefox cannot do. Go to http://www.Maxthon.com to download it.
I have been using FireFox for over 7 months, been the best change that i have made on my non-linux boxes. Although i still favor Linux over windows any day.
A short trial says "not yet". Tabs,? who wants to open pages from a row of untitled tabs when you can see the titles (headlines) in Fox, USAToday, etc, and select what you want to see.
My Google autofill was gone. Some pages stumble. A tad faster, yes, but IE will render pages as fast as my eyeballs can keep up. Security-? My ISP, AV Software, Mailwasher, Adaware, Spybot and SP2 all get a whack at virus's and funky ad stuff. It's getting boring except when I edit the registry with reckless abandon. Firefox is neat but needs a little more time.
Cheers
Before I started using Firefox I spent part of each week getting rid of browser hijackers that made IE almost useless. Since I got FF, no hijackers. I've helped about a dozen friends who had the same problem and didn't know how to fix it - by installing FF for them. None of us will be going back. A computer store guy tried to tell me IE was not the problem & it was "our fault" for going to sites which install hijackers. As if they advertise it!
I'm just amazed at what I read from the Firefox security advocates. When Firefox takes over 90% of the market share and hackers and virus writers turn their sites on the new "browser of choice", we'll see just how many holes it has. It's just like the Linux vs. Windows debate. Linux will never be as vulnerable as Windows for the simple reason that virus writers and hackers have no interest in disrupting a few lives when they can disrupt millions.
I've been following Firefox since its conception, way back when it was called Phoenix. Back then, I didn't realize that it would evolve as much as it did from its crashy 0.1 version. It began to crash much less as of Firebird 0.7. And when Firefox 0.8 came out, I was literally astounded by the fact that this might catch on.
I suppose the only reason I don't use it is because I've hung on to Netscape even after Netscape 6.0. And for all those that say I'm missing out on RSS, Google Search, etc..., that can all be added right on top of the existing Netscape codebase. Plus, then I'd have to go out and download Thunderbird, Sunbird, Nvu, mIRC, and a ton of other stuff to replace what's already included in Netscape.
I read this and had to laugh. I see a growing trend in the software industry that makes me feel a little worried, no really worried. Software companies have been facing a growing issue of time, money, and deadlines to produce software title for the market. But recently as the last year or so, I have noticed that more and more software titles released to the market are not finished titles. Rather they are partially completed in order to meet some deadline and then are quickly patched over and over to fix the missing parts, security flaws, and bugs not tested for in beta. Video games are a major problem, and Microsoft has been one to lead this trend in my mind with ME, and XP releases that clearly were rushed and left unfinished. But hey why pay for testers, tons of programmers and waste tons of money making it a complete title, lets just get it to market and patch it later.
I've been using FF since I a friend recommended it to me, and I can't go back. I tried Opera too, but FF .8 hasn't crashed, hasn't had trouble opening any website or generally ticked me off in any way, shape or manner. Whenever someone calls me to help them with their computer, the first thing I do is switch them to FF. Way to go Mozilla
I agree, FireFox has some great innovations, and looks clean and uncluttered compared to IE. But for chrissakes, it's SLOW... renders web pages MUCH slower than IE, scrolls much slower. This has been noted in several independent reviews. I'm guessing that those of you who are stating that it's a speed improvement are using an on-board graphics chip, and can't see the difference anyway?
Some of you really need to research more. Can firefox be ever less secure than IE? No. Firefox doesn't have ActiveX, VBScript, tight integration to OS, etc ect etc. Take Apache and IIS for example. You can assume, but your not right here.
ActiveX and VBScript, Etc are what make IE the browser of choice for lots of prople
The average user doesn't even know what ActiveX, VBScript is. So why do you expect IE to be the browser of choice for lot of people? Because its already included with Windows, not because of all the complicated stuff.
I've tried Firefox--again. I've been doing so for the last 12+ months. At one point, I even used it exclusively for 2 full months, trying to give it a fair chance. But even with the "final" release, I still CANNOT say it's ready for prime time. As before, I immediately started running into problems for which no one could (or would*) provide a fix. (Do reviewers of browser software hate Microsoft so much they cannot at all be objective about Firefox's deficiencies?)
I'm sticking with MAXTHON for the foreseeable future. It's tabs work far better. It's interface is much cleaner and easier to customize. And finally, many extensions that are needed to truly make it better weren't bothered to be upgraded. So in many respects, the functionality of the betas has been dropped in the final release. Duh.
*Firefox's "success" seems to have gone to the heads of those who consider themselves helping in the forums. Ask a question and you get admonished for not searching (which I did, and always do first) and/or are referred to pages written in "Techlish," not English.
Use MAXTHON!
I went to smugle.com and download Firefox yesterday. So far, it's really awesome! It is now my default brower.
I use Firefox as my default browser too. In fact, I am using it to post this reply now. It's my default browser too! One thing I like about it is that it loads pages much faster than IE. And I haven't yet found a page that doesn't work with it.
I'm using Firefox for 3 months now. The first time I used it, I immediately noticed improvements in my browsing speed. No spyware or adware detection in my system since then. I'm willing to try any browser as long as it is easy to use. The browser wars is really benefitting us users.
IE SP2 = pop-blocker, no tabbed browsing.
Firefox = pop-blocker, tabbed browsing.
Not much difference to me.
SlimBrowzer is better than Maxthon when it comes to tabbed usage. As far as Firefox, if it takes 9 betas to get to 1.0, then I wouldn't exactly call that making inroads on IE. Face it people, you're the ones who are responsuble for your browzing, whether its haphazard or not. You should know that there is beau coup freeware programs to help you protect yourself from the green meanies out there. And if your stuff is really that important to you, why do you keep it on the same hard drive ( partition )that you use for surfing?
The reason why it took 9 betas to get to 1.0 is becuase that is customary open source versioning model. Most open source producs version their software starting with 0.1. Don't let the numbers fool you. I have been using Firefox since 0.6 (it was called Firebird then) and it has always been stable to use.
I've not really cared much about the browser wars. Though my sites should show well in any browser, I only test through IE.
I find the SP/2 IE to be pretty good. It's is slower, but, that's always the price you pay for security. Just disable your anti-virus software and see what I mean.
webmaster/ owner: http://www.dannysdailys.com
I've used FF since V.6 and in the last few builds it has really come unto it's own. Certainly my browser of choice.
Hey, if you think IE is better - fair dos. But in my experience FF is less prone to spyware attacks, excellent tabbed browsing, a fantastic popup blocker (although I admit it's IE 'styled' now which helps).
FF is closer to CSS specs than IE - uses RSS and live bookmarks - doesn't bring down explorer if it crashes. No contest imo.
I use both Avant Browser (an IE shell) and Firefox. While Avant gives me all the bells and whistles I like, Firefox is secure and more apt to prevent spyware and all malware in general from loading. People who say that IE is better are only saying so because a) most pages are done for IE and b) it's a lot "easier" to use than Firefox. That being the case, if it's "easier" for people to use it's also "easier" for hackers and crackers to jack your browser. I can't say the same for Firefox: More secure and almost no fear of loading a page that's riddled with pop-ups and spyware.
One of the reasons that prodded me to download Firefox was the fact that I had before tried Mozilla Thunderbird and liked it. So when a friend of mine gave me a used laptop, he installed Thunderbird on it for me--and Firefox, which, I think, is the perfect companion to Thunderbird (think IE/Outlook Express). I decided I liked it and put it on my desktop (my main computer, actually a laptop with a dead screen, so I connected an external monitor, keyboard, and mouse and it's a desktop now). I would reccomend it to anyone who does even casual web browsing. Tabbed browsing is nice too, webmail in one tab, PC Magazine or PC World in the other. I still use IE every once in a while, but of course now it takes forever to load since I loaded it with too many browser toolbars.
i'm using SP2 and i got to tell ya that it's popup blocker doesn't block as much as FF, simple as that. I've tried IE over and over the activeX is a crappy technology, VBscript is an enigma to me..I'd say since i'm both a paid and freelance multimedia software developer, that i'd use more functionality than the average bear, and i still don't understand what people are using a browser for to need it.I can't speak for anyone else, but to me IE is in itself the problem most people have with their computers no matter the problem. Viruses, BHO's, hijackers adware, spyware, and mystery code that just appears out of nowhere, all trace back to IE's sloppy written code and even sloppier patchwork.
I agree FF needs mileage and maturity, but it's simply more stable, Sure it's crashed on all of my 12 workstations but never once took down windows in the process. MS should be ashamed of IE, I know I am that's why it's even locked it out on my firewall and it's icon is banished from the desktop. As far as tabbed interface...it's just not possible after using it to go back to clunky IE. Yeah, so what activeX and VBscript might make some cool gadgetry and effects, but grow up functionality, stability and most importantly unmolested surfing time is what is really important. If you got to have all that other garbage you deserve spyware infestations.
Fire Fox missed an important item..
When I want to go to full screen (f11) their is no ability to put your favorites icon in the tool bar.
all i can say to te mozilla guys is: THANKS FOR DELIVERING US FROM THE PURGATORY OF MICROSOFT AND THEIR HAPLESS EXPLORER!!!
THANK YOU
THANK YOU
THANK YOU
Thumbs up to FF. My browser crashed last week & my DSL provider recommended FF. No popups, faster pages & a feeling of more security. I will never go back to IE.
Thank you Firefox!!!
Firefox actually has a googlebar (with all the standard googlebar functions) and an autofill extension. In fact, all the feature you have missed are all implemented by extensions. Want firefox to work just like Maxthon? Download the superdragandgo and the url2newtab extension.
Personally, I prefer Opera. It's MUCH more customizable. A few days ago, I downloaded Firefox to compare.
Firefox was terrible in comparison (just an opinion, no offense meant to firefox fanatics)
I've started using FF since .6 beta release. FF is a clean, simple and fast browser. IMHO, it is far better than current IE.
No matter who wins in this new browser war, the ultimate benefit goes to the users. We are getting better products from the out come.
ps: try this site, you can get lots of extension to add functionality to FF :)
http://extensionroom.mozdev.org/
In response to Brad on Friday, November 12, 2004, 05:20 AM (PST). You make a very good point about viruses, etc if and when Firefox gains more market share.
But I read an interesting article (somewhere) for Linux users is that for any unix related virus to become effective, the user has to be logged in as root in order to do any damage. And most (smart) users will not be, so Linux Firefox users should in theory be more secure than Windows users. Time will tell!
I agree with the other postings that Firefox rocks! Small download size (~5MB), fast, stable, tabbed browsing -- what more can you ask for?
FIREFOX IS THE BEST BROWSER!!! IT KICKS AZZ!
I used Firefox and I was attacked by some ad ware called Bargain Buddy. It went all over my computer and installed another ap that would reinstall both programs after I tried to clean them out. I finally disposed both of them along with Firefox. All I tried to do was copy a animated picture of a turkey for my web site and the next thing I knew was Bargain Buddy
threw a wrench in my OS.
Someday Firefox will have to come out with its own SP2 update.
My favorite browser is not IE, I like the features of MSN browser that is full of features and a nice interface with email, pictures and video all in one. It just seems no one is talking about it and I for one give it two thumbs up. Its also free and you can down load it at www.msn.com
Thanks for listening.
Jim
Reading the reviews I see the same sort of fanatic evangelism that splits Mac users from PC users. I am the web specialist at the Math Faculty f the University of Waterloo. We have built (and maintain) a web site that works equally well in almost all browsers (dropdowns included), which complies to W3C standards. My biggst beef with IE is it's quirky standards supports. It (seems) t eschew standards support for MS specific extensions. It's high time all browsers supoorted (fully) the W3C standards, which all the players help craft. Better standards support is better for everyone. there doesn't need to be "one best" browser.
I've been using Opera for several years, and it is my browser of choice. It has very good customization features and the support base is fantastic. I also use Firefox and Thunderbird (email) on occasion and it performs very well. I am an active supporter of the Open Source programmers. They are like the mechanics that soup up the stock cars for weekend racing, and produce tweaks and mods that make our surfing more enjoyable. ROCK ON OPEN SOURCE.
I do have to keep IE around for auto updating, and some of the web pages my young kids like to frequent. IE supports the ActiveX and Visual Basic Scripts that make these web sites interactive. Unfortunately, ActiveX and VB create serious security problems, and provide a pipeline for malware infection. I encourage all of ya'll to try out Opera, Firefox and other alternatives. In addition to seeing what other features are available, you would be surprise what you can learn about W3C standards and customization.
http://www.opera.com/download/
http://www.mozilla.org/
It would be nice for all those who use IE to download Maxthon and see if they use it instead of IE, as well as the other browser like FF/Opera etc.
You cannot lose, only win.