First Impressions: Samsung's BD-P1000 Blu-Ray Player
Posted by Melissa Perenson | Thursday, June 22, 2006 10:25 AM PT
UPDATE 06/22/06
I had the opportunity to spend some quality time on June 20th with Samsung's BD-P1000, the first Blu-ray Disc player for the living room, and was left with several early thoughts about this model as compared to
Toshiba?s HD-A1, its $499 HD DVD player.
Scroll down in this blog entry, which I've updated several times since the 20th, for new observations on responsiveness and the player's specs, as well as disc playback, disc capacity, and some early thoughts on picture quality issues. And look for a forthcoming blog entry that will discuss the picture quality issues facing comparisions of Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD.
We'll post a full review of the Samsung BD-P1000 once we get a unit in-house, have titles from more than one studio, and have the chance to more fully test the unit in our lab.
June 20th marked Sony?s launch of its
first seven Blu-ray Disc titles. And, in spite of Samsung?s official launch date of June 25, the
Samsung BD-P1000 player can already be found at retailers nationwide, including the Best Buy in Culver City, CA (which had two in stock, plus one on display). (As of June 21, however, I'd heard of at least one Best Buy store which was telling customers they'd been instructed to not sell the player until the June 25).
Here are my initial impressions based on two hours with the player:
Design. The industrial design of the Samsung is far superior to that of the HD-A1 in several ways. The sleek, piano-black box has a tapered look; a circular, pressure-based front navigation panel; comfortable, lightweight remote control; and a 10-in-2 card slot reader for reading photos or MP3s. The player even resumes disc playback where you left off, whether you press stop, or you power the unit down?a nice touch. Here's a photo:
Inside, the player uses a proprietary Samsung processor and what the company describes as 64MB of system memory. It's quiet, too: I found its fan and drive motor to be rather quiet in an environment with low ambient noise. By contrast, the Toshiba HD-A1 is essentially using PC components inside, from its NEC drive to its Pentium CPU and 1GB of memory; I found the Toshiba slightly more noisy, but not so much so that it would dramatically detract from the zen state of your living room environment.
Responsiveness. Again, the Samsung rates ahead here. Across a variety of standard definition and high definition films I threw at it, the Samsung was generally fast at navigating around and titles and menu options, and the remote?s soft-mold buttons responded to my commands in a timely fashion. Sometimes, the Sony BD discs I tried (including
House of Flying Daggers and
50 First Dates) were a bit sluggish when accessing chapters, but this problem did not seem evident with standard-def discs, which leads me to believe it?s an issue with the discs, not the Samsung player.
Future-proofing. Toshiba?s HD-A1 has the edge here. That player includes two USB ports up front, as well as an ethernet jack. Although Toshiba has not specified how those might be used down the road, at least the player has them (the inclusion of ethernet alone should make it easier down the road for consumers to upgrade the player). Samsung?s player, on the other hand, has neither USB nor ethernet; any firmware upgrades will need to be handled via disc.
Disc Playback. The Samsung player was very responsive as I navigated around different aspects of the disc. I noticed that, upon rewinding within a scene, rather than precisely starting where I stopped the rewind, it instead did an auto-back track for a few frames, so I'd catch the frames just before the spot I intended to stop at. The BD-P1000 also provides an on-screen cue telling you how fast you're scanning; the Toshiba player does not.
Disc startup times--from insertion to first picture--seemed to vary from disc to disc, but all of the discs I tried were faster than the Toshiba player (when tested without the firmware update that Toshiba issued two weeks ago). Whereas the Toshiba player could require from a minute to up to 90 seconds to load a disc, the Samsung player was speedier:
Memento required 32 seconds to load;
House of Flying Daggers, 44 seconds;
50 First Dates, 31 seconds;
The Fifth Element, 32 seconds;
xXx, 32 seconds.
First Movie Titles and Disc Capacity. In a recent
column, I observed how much disc space was utilized by eight HD DVD titles. Even though all eight titles relied on the latest video codecs--VC-1 and MPEG-4 AVC, both of which are more efficient encoders than MPEG-2--most of the titles showed signs of pushing HD DVD's capacity limits.
The Last Samurai topped out at 27.3GB,
Mel Brooks's Blazing Saddles at 25.4GB,
The Phantom of the Opera at 24.8GB,
Jarhead at 24.7GB,
The Bourne Identity at 22.7GB,
Serenity at 19.6GB,
The Fugitive at 18.2GB, and
Doom at 16.5GB.
It seems that the first wave of Blu-ray titles are also pushing the space constraints of the format. For now, these titles are limited to 25GB single-layer discs; 50GB dual-layer discs are forthcoming, though. Using Sony's new Vaio AR Premium, a $3500 notebook that includes a Blu-ray Disc burner, I checked out how much disc space Sony's first seven Blu-ray titles (encoded in MPEG-2, and many of them light on extra features) required. The results of this survey were quite telling:
The Fifth Element needed 22.8GB;
The Terminator, 23GB;
House of Flying Daggers, 23.1GB;
xXx, 22.3GB;
Hitch, 22.9GB;
Underworld Evolution, 22.5GB;
50 First Dates, 18.8GB.
My one takeaway from this random survey of both Blu-ray and HD DVD titles: The physical disc format's capacity is going to be more integral to the future presentation of content than perhaps Hollywood, or even industry observers, originally anticipated.
Admittedly, with time the industry will develop better, more efficient video encoders that will produce equal video quality at lower bit rates--thereby requiring less space on a disc to do the same job. However, none of these early titles are tapping the full potential of extras filmed in high-definition, let alone the interactivity afforded by the authoring environments of either Blu-ray Disc (which uses its own flavor of Java), or HD DVD (which relies on Microsoft's iHD).
Picture Quality.Considering how many variables go into producing a movie title--be it on DVD, HD DVD, or Blu-ray Disc--I am not ready to judge the Samsung player, or the Blu-ray Disc format for that matter, on the first titles released by one studio. Look for a separate blog with my thoughts on the issues involved in judging picture quality on these next-generation discs. And, when we have a Samung player in-house, I'll report on the results of my more thorough, comparative image quality testing.
I've heard complaints of boot up times on HD dvd players. Does the same carry over to BD players?
Is this player worth twice the price of an HD DVD when the picture is only half the quality of HD DVD? MPEG2 + 25gigs = Horrible Picture Quality
@Chest Rockwell
The Mpeg2 video of BD is superior to the H.264 used for HD-DVD.
Sony has the largest portfolio of native HD mastered movies and spent a great deal of time working with both codecs. They determined Mpeg2 replicated film grain better with a higher bit rate. H.264 was a better codec for small size files, ie. UMD for PSP. They basicaly have said the Mpeg2 looks identical to the HD master when viewed on a 1080p television.
I like all the technical jargon you just spouted here, but I have one for you; "seeing is believing". The rest of us however use our eyes and expirence to judge picture quality and sound. I was going to actually buy one, you see I have 3 HDTVs so my plan was to have one for each TV in each room. I spent well over an hour watching the same 'House of F.D.s' and '50 First D.s' and I was shocked at the poor picture quality! They had huge flakes all over the screen. For $1000 this is a joke. I will buy another HD DVD when Toshiba releases its next batch with 1080p early next year. If PS3 looks this bad, I might just start bringing myself to do without Tekken and buy the Xbox.
Must be nice to have money to "early-adopt" like you have. The rest of us will wait till the price comes down (and by then the quality issue ironed out)
BTW who actually has a HD-tv with 1080p, i know that don't. my 1080i/720p Samsung works great. as far i know you need a 1080p to get the full experience of both of these formats, but i could be mistaken.
Also has anyone thought about people like me who own 200+ regular dvds. I have no problem with the picture quality, as most people don't.
Also has anyone thought about people like me who own 200+ regular dvds?
You can get away with an "up-convert" DVD player. That's what I have attached to my 1080i plasma through both composite / HDMI (till the PS3 comes out).
Who actually has a 1080P? Are you kidding? I work for Magnolia AV and we have sold nothing but 1080p tv's for about a year now. As soon as samsung released its 1080p DLP's they were back ordered. So they're a hot item!
Anyhow, if you are content with 'regular dvd' picture, that's fine, don't read up on this anymore.
I think standard DVD on my 1080p is horrible. With my upconvert DVD it's a big imporvement, but HD/Blu-ray is really the way to go.
Like any new technology, early adopters always have $$$. The first Sony DVD player on the market 10 years ago was over $1000 dollars.
Some people are just buying regular DVD players for the first time now, for $29.99 at Walmart. LoL, and then hooking it up to an RF Modulator for there 40 year old TV.
Also, Keep in mind early adopters also get screwed quite often... The original XBR HD tv's had only component video. No DVI or HDMI... They will need to buy a new TV to enjoy HD/BLU-RAY...
...ok i'm done ranting...
I've heard just as many good things about Blu-ray movies on the Samsung as I have heard bad things. I know the AX-1 had a mixed reception as well. I think I'll wait for the Sony player to come out as well as more titles before coming to a real conclusion.
People pining the death of BluRay at this stage must be on MSes pay roll, frankly. Movies like Underworld and Terminator have excellent reviews, so the problem may be in the mastering from certain studios, not the format itself. We shall see.
Odd how she won't comment on the lousy picture quality of the fist BD movies. But yet it boots ups quicker. I don't care about boot up tims but about picture quality. I returned my Samsung and will wait for 2G BD players. Most of the first BD titles have a terrible picture. I will keep my HD DVD player for now and enjoy the pristine quality. Sony really dropped the ball on this by releasing mediocre video with the first titles. They are no better than OTA HD while HD DVD blows that away.
"Odd how she won't comment on the lousy picture quality of the fist BD movies. But yet it boots ups quicker. I don't care about boot up tims but about picture quality. I returned my Samsung and will wait for 2G BD players. Most of the first BD titles have a terrible picture. I will keep my HD DVD player for now and enjoy the pristine quality. Sony really dropped the ball on this by releasing mediocre video with the first titles. They are no better than OTA HD while HD DVD blows that away."
I find it odd that you dont mention a single title or why you think its crummy enough to return a player... Especially since you're the kind of savvy consumer who knows that VC-1 will be rolling out with Fox and Disney releases..
"Who actually has a 1080P? Are you kidding? I work for Magnolia AV and we have sold nothing but 1080p tv's for about a year now."
Again other market segment that is being targeted. Most of the people that i know that have HD TV, don't have 1080p. I'm sorry if i'm behind the times since i just got my hdtv and its not 1080p, but i still don't think that most people that have hdtv have 1080p, and the people that do, have the cheddar to go out and buy a br or hddvd. most people will be fine with there regular dvds and unless br or hddvd become the standard most people will have no need or the will or the money to change.
The BD-P1000 is clearly superior in design and performance based on the reviews that i've read so far...i expect it will provide the same visual experience as HD-DVD...not bad for a first generation product though...i still think it's too pricey, but that's really because they have to pass the cost of updating their disc factories on to the consumer...and for the record, both HD-DVD and BD support MPEG-2, MPEG-4 AVC and VC-1...so there's no point arguing about it...it's a non-issue...just because one side decides to issue it's first batch of high def DVDs in MPEG-2 doesn't make the product as a whole inferior to the offerings of the other side...they can issue DVDs in any of those 3 formats at any time, which is the most important thing to remember...MPEG-4 is in fact a superior codec in terms of it's design and possible implementation but they both provide about the same quality at high bit rates...MPEG-4 will provide more disc space though and is better at lower bit rates, which is why HD-DVD needs it now (and always) when BD doesn't at the moment...i don't think HD-DVD, with it's limited disc sizes, can use MPEG-2 without sacrificing menu creativity or bonus content...and what's more significant, all of the discs had data that exceeded 15GB, which is the size of a standard HD-DVD single layer disc...BD hasn't even touched their double layer yet while HD-DVD can't even use their single layer...so why did they make their single layer discs so small? well the answer to that is that they didn't have a choice..they retained so much of contemporary DVD technology, that they couldn't get it over 15GB without making extreme changes which would incur excessive costs (like BD) ...that allows them to sell at lower introductory prices since they don't need to change the manufacturing process too much...it also allows them to use their factories to make both DVDs and HD-DVDs (unlike BD)...but that's as far as the format will go...there's no real room for improvement without making the changes that BD has made...Like Robert, i'm also one who's satisfied with the visual quality of my DVD collection and, as such, i'm not in any hurry to get a high-def video player...that said, i am definitely going to buy a high-def burner when the prices finally go down enough...i find the HD-DVD specs are lacking there and i expect that i'll be buying a Bluray burner...if you think that you'll be able to store your data on a 30GB HD-DVD, think again...the only recordable 30GB HD-DVD will be in RW format...that's because HD-DVD double layer discs will only come in the form of ROMs and RW's...no double-layer HD-DVD R...on top of that, HD-DVD discs will only be as scratch-resistant as current DVDs...BD discs will come with scratch-resistant coating (mostly out of necessity, since they are slightly thinner)...i guess those of us who are anxious for the high definition experience will rush out there and buy these players...but just remember that being able to count the toes of a chicken running across the screen isn't going to make a badly written movie any better...on top of that, not everyone has the 20/20 vision that's necessary to truely enjoy high-def...ultimately it's the script and the actors that make the movie great...in any case, i'm hoping that a hybrid burner will emerge from all of this, so that i can have the option of moving data between computers that use BD and HD-DVD without requiring a portable harddrive...
I just found out that the DVD forum has approved specs for the 30GB HD-DVD R DL as of May of this year, so we will have 30GB double layer HD-DVD Rs after all...That's great news...still leaning towards a Blu-ray burner though...HD-DVD is really for the consumer electronics market...there's nothing there that says PC to me...
Watching a regular DVD on a 60" HDTV is like trying to adjust your rabbit-ear antenna to get the best off-air signal, it just looks bad. The High Definition DVD players are the solution to this growing problem. 5X more pixels= 5X sharper picture --- on paper.
The fact to the matter is that the movie production companies have to shell out cash to buy 1080i OR 1080p movie cameras to film their content before we'll be able to see the true advantage of these players. Untill then, we're just looking at an upconverted DVD.
Now Sony has remastered all the BD DVD's to 1920x1080, which is why there current releases are limited. It will take another year to see true HD content from our wonderful studios. So fighting about quality is really a moot point.
The 'TRUE' bottom line is...
1. BD has 99% of the film industry backing them, HD-DVD only has one major player
2. BD is more secure against piracy, the industry likes this...alot
3. BD disks will eventually be lower in price, not equal in price, due to quantity of production
4. There will 5X more BD players on the market because there's more manufactures
Price... non-issue
Quality...non-issue
Content...MAJOR ISSUE
MJ and Jose', why don't the both of you log into the AVS Forum, a real forum that discusses facts and technical info about both Blu-ray and HD DVD. You might sing a different tune when you read what scientists and Microsoft engineers have to say about the failed Blu-ray product!
I have never read worse drivel than the rubbish that was just written by Jose!
Let me answer your "Bottom line" quote:
1. HD DVD has the support of the most powerful movie company Universal (net worth: 144 Billion) almost three times as powerful as any movie studio! They have the backing of the most powerful coperation on earth; Microsoft.
They also have Warner Brothers, New Line, Paramount, Magnolia, HBO, and Image Entertainment. There are also rumours that Lionsgate is looking to jump ship and the likely hood of Disney and MGM signing with HD DVD within 3 months! BECAUSE BLU-RAY HAS FAILED!
They tried to bring out a product that was not well thought out or ready for consumer production, Sony gambled on their intimidation tactics to force Toshiba from releasing this technology before they were ready to counter but failed. The world now sees that HD DVD is real, works, and is affordable!
I estimate that more studios will join the Microsoft backed HD DVD format befor years end
2. It has been determined that in order for Blu-ray to match the quality of HD DVD they would have to use Microsoft's (member of HD DVD's camp) VC-1.
3. Blu-ray currently does not even have the kinks figured out on how to use 25G that they do have. They are beginning to realize that their technology, however great on paper it may be, cannot be realized in the realm of practice and implementation.
4. Lastly, there is only ONE Blu-ray player in the market the Samsung! Sony postponed and left Samsung holding the bag. Now Samsung is contemplating a dual HD DVD -Blu-ray player.
LG has scapped off of its Blu-ray player and is reseaching into the production of a dual format player as well.
5. Arguments are made based on facts not emotions!
Apapa, i'm already a member of AVS...i've seen all the posts to date...and they don't support what you're saying either...not even the guy from MS..in fact, they've found that the differences between the players were mainly in their ability to upconvert DVDs, which, by the way has nothing to do with either format...high-def playback was actually great in both players; they gave a slight edge to HD-DVD for visual quality but, of course they couldn't compare the same movie on both, which would have been the real test...both formats do work well to produce high definition video..there was some sluggishness in both players in response to remote commands (less so in the HD-DVD) but 1st generation product are that way, particulary since they're operating at 1x..you don't get proper response times until you get above 1x...by the time second generation devices get here they'll be indistinguishable from each other...and just remember that bluray hasn't produced it's best stuff yet...they used the cheapest of the codecs on their smaller capacity discs...when they finally get around to using the DL discs they will need much less compression per movie so their movies will naturally be reproduced closer to the original data....that means even greater transparency...plus Blu-ray will have the edge later when it comes to extra content...they can put everything on one 50GB DL disc, all at 1080p...HD-DVD can't...they'll suffer once people start getting far more extras on Blu-ray...
you mentioned that there is only one bluray player..that's true, because they've just got started...but that's not the whole story..apparently you haven't heard that Dell, Hewlett Packard, Hitachi, LG Electronics, Mitsubishi Electric, Panasonic (Matsushita Electric), Pioneer, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp, Sony, TDK and Thomson will all be making Bluray players...the only HD-DVD players will come from Toshiba, NEC and Sanyo...(do people still buy Sanyo?)...not alot of variety there...Toshiba is going up against the rest of the CE industry..
Apapa wrote: "Blu-ray currently does not even have the kinks figured out on how to use 25G that they do have. They are beginning to realize that their technology, however great on paper it may be, cannot be realized in the realm of practice and implementation."
And you called what Jose wrote drivel? what kinks? the technology works just fine and, in fact, there has been innovative work done in the Bluray labs that will take the format beyond the imagination of HD-DVD in less than 2 years...they've already moved the read speed of bd-rom to 108Mbps as of last year and they have made put as many as four layers unto a single side of a disc...that's about 200GB...only costs are keeping them from implementing higher data bandwidths immediately in the first generation drives....all the reviews i've read have indicted that the shortcoming of the BD-P1000 is mainly in it's software...that's what happens when you rush for the sake of competing...all in all, this so-called war is really for the videophiles...the rest of us will be watching standard DVD while you fools foot the bill for the new technology...when the prices come down we'll be there...but rest assured, neither technology is going anywhere..hi-def video based on disc technology will be wiped out by online video on demand...NOTHING can compete with that! Bluray will take it's rightful place on the PC market...
You know the great thing for blind Sony followers like you, you see whatever information you like. If you really were truely an AVS member and have "see all post to date" you would completely agree with me.
THIS IS ONE OF THE MANY REVIEWS OF YOUR PRECIOUS BLU-RAY HYPE: DIGITAL BITS ( I have read 13 like it to date,)
Well... I've had my first experience with Blu-ray Disc, and Samsung's BD-P1000 Blu-ray Disc player. For the record, I have four titles on hand... The Fifth Element and The Terminator (from Sony and MGM) and Lord of War and Crash (from Lionsgate).
You know how I keep saying that these formats are being rushed to market about a year before they're ready? And you recall how hard I was on the HD-DVD camp for their klutzy launch and buggy hardware? And you know how I said that Blu-ray Disc looked like the superior format, at least on paper? Well... unfortunately, the Blu-ray camp has dropped a dud with their big launch too. Every bit as klutzy as HD-DVD. Think Clark Kent klutzy, or Gerald Ford klutzy, or Chevy Chase playing Gerald Ford klutzy.
Let's start with the Samsung player. Nice box, nice packaging. You pull the BD-P1000 out of said packaging and it looks pretty badass. Love the lines. It's a much nicer looking player than Toshiba's HD-A1, though it's lighter and feels a little less solid. The BD-P1000's remote is nicer too... not backlit unfortunately, but it feels better in your hand and the buttons are laid out more conveniently.
Connection via HDMI is pretty easy. You fire the BD-P1000 up and the first thing you notice is a sexy blue glow from the various openings on the player. Nice... except I have yet to find a dimmer. And it's just a little too bright, you know? Anyway... the player fires up very quickly. You get a welcome screen within about 5 seconds of power-on. BIG improvement over the Tosh HD-DVD player. You can load a disc after less then 30 seconds, also an improvement over the Tosh. I also like that when it's loading or thinking, you get a little onscreen icon to let you know, rather than just nothing. At least you feel like the thing is doing something. For whatever reason, the player defaults to 720p output via HDMI... you have to go into the setup menu to select 1080i. Okay, so that's what I did.
Now it's time to look at my first Blu-ray Disc. Naturally, my hand swerved towards The Fifth Element. The title was an amazing bit of reference work on standard DVD, and that Superbit version was awesome. Obvious choice, right? Should look amazing in HD. Yeah... it should. But it doesn't. In fact... I'm not going to come out and say it looks like crap, but it is easily the worst looking high-definition title I've seen yet, and I've seen 30+ titles now. The image is muddy looking, lacking in crisp, clean detail. The colors don't quite pop off the screen like they should. Just a mess. Okay... I will say it. It looks like crap. Sony should never have released this title like this. In fact, they should be embarrassed about this disc. Seriously, if you compare the upscaled Superbit standard-definition DVD to this, the Blu-ray Disc looks only marginally better. This should have been a reference title in high-def and it's not even in the ball park. My brow furrowed in troubled surprise at this point. Wow... and not the good kind.
Next, I tried The Terminator. A big improvement. This is easily the best quality I've ever seen The Terminator looking before. Still... it's a little bit soft and gritty looking, but then it's an older film and that's the nature of the film stock used. The disc is very good looking, but not blow-you-away good. In any case, this is probably not the best title to test the video quality of Blu-ray Disc, so let's move on.
Now these two Lionsgate titles... they're much better looking. Crash and Lord of War have significantly improved clarity, crisp yet clean detail, vibrant color... they're much more like what I expected Blu-ray Disc would look like. Both have a more film-like image. And yet...
There are some problems I'm seeing right away with all of the Blu-ray Disc titles on the BD-P1000. First, when I switch to 1080i, I'm noticing some very obvious scaling issues that I don't see when the player is set to 720p. I also don't see anything like this on the Toshiba HD-A1 at any resolution, so this is specific to THIS player, which may be why Samsung ships it with 720p set by default. Second, I'm noticing a very slight "studdering" problem. About once a second, or maybe once every few seconds, the video seems to hesitate for just a instant - a tiny fraction of a second. You notice it most when the images on screen are moving quickly, or when the camera is panning. It may be that this issue is related to the first. Still trying to figure out what I'm seeing here. Lionsgate's Lord of War was the title where I noticed it first, and I'll have to check them all before knowing whether it's just this title or all of the discs. Again, it's not something I've seen on any HD-DVD titles thus far.
By the way, I haven't tested the Samsung's standard DVD upconversion capability to any real degree yet. Just FYI.
If I had to compare my initial impressions of Blu-ray Disc to those of HD-DVD... well, I certainly need to see more Blu-ray titles and spend more time with the player. I'm really just giving you my initial, off-the-cuff comments, based on less than 10 hours of viewing time with the Samsung. It's worth noting that we've only seen one player for each format, so it's hard to say what issues are specifically related to the players, and what are format related. But right now... I think I may end up giving Round One of this format war to HD-DVD, and that surprises the hell out of me. Sure, that Tosh HD-DVD player was a lemon until the firmware upgrade, but it's worked like a charm since. And the first 25 or so HD-DVD discs I've viewed just look better overall than the first 4 Blu-ray Discs I've seen. The HD-DVDs also have a LOT more extra features than the Blu-ray Discs (even if you consider that most of the extras are recycled from standard DVD). For the record, Terminator on Blu-ray has 7 deleted scenes and 2 featurettes, recycled from standard DVD. Fifth Element has a pop-up trivia track, again from the standard DVD. The Lionsgate titles have nothing. I keep hearing these comments (both official and unofficial) from Blu-ray execs saying that they're leaving off the extras so they can give all the extra disc space over to the best video quality possible. Which tells me that Blu-ray is having major disc space problems. I've heard from more than a few industry sources that Blu-ray is having trouble getting the dual-layered BD media to work, which means that discs with lots of extras and good video quality aren't an option now. It also means that longer movies aren't an option now either. Both are problems for this format that don't seem to be troubling HD-DVD at the moment - at least not at first glance, based on the initial title offering.
What all of this goes to prove, of course, is just what I've been saying all along: These formats are being rushed to market before they're ready. And it also proves that the best option for the vast majority of you out there is just to save your money. Don't even bother with Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD for at least a year, because there are significant bugs to be worked out yet. Wait until better hardware and software is available at a better price, and the early adopter types have dealt with the problems and getting the manufacturers and studios to fix them. Anyway, I'll have more to say about Blu-ray Disc and the Samsung player in the next few days, as I spend a little more time with it. But so far, I'm less than impressed.
And by the way MJ, since you have read every thread about the new Blu-ray player on AVS, you might have stumbled upon the AVS polls for OWNERS of the new Samsung only: 77% OF THEM HAVE ALREADY RETURNED, OR ARE RETURNING THE BLU-RAY PLAYER!
Go figure!
YOU ARE SERIOUSLY EXPECTING CONSUMERS TO SHELL OUT $1000 FOR SOMETHING THAT MIGHT BE BETTER LATER? It's like saying "trust me, give me your hard-earned cash now and I promise to live up to my potential later." Are you guys insane? This is not the NFL!
Apapa, I'm not a Sony fanboi...in fact my only Sony product is a MP3 discman that i hardly use now...ok, and a few CDs from the late 90's...I don't support companies like some people do politicians...i support my own principles...Sony's name may be what persons are using to describe the blu-ray camp but the truth is that they are just one of many...you have to remember that the blu-ray camp is actually the DVD+RW camp from a few years ago...so while most people will think sony when they think blu-ray, i think DVD+RW league...I'll certainly agree with you, apapa, that they're rushing these products to market before they're fully ready...it was only last month that HD-DVD finalised specs for their HD-DVD R double layer...but the assertion you made that blu-ray isn't getting their DL discs to work is not the case...what's actually the case is that they're having lots of trouble with the MANUFACTURING PROCESS of their DLs so it's being done at a much smaller scale than they hoped...their large scale production plants are faulty because they are guilty of rushing their upgrade process...yeah, i know you will doubt me but you won't doubt this..take a look at the specs for the Panasonic Blu-ray SW-5582..you'll note that it burns DL..in fact many person are using BD-R DL media already, since it's been available for awhile..and all the reviewers liked it and had no problems other than the time it took...i saw the threads on the poll, sure..but you're missing my point...the only failure here is by Samsung...there's nothing wrong with the TECHNOLOGY behind blu-ray...it excels in the lab tests and in the Samsung player and in the Panasonic burner and it's up to the CE manufacturers like Samsung to get the best out of it in their products...and that always takes time (hence our reference to generations of products)...those poor fools who actually bought one of these excessively expensive, excessively buggy products are lucky to get their money back...you see, the fact that the Toshiba products are performing slightly better than the Samsung product doesn't indicate that HD-DVD technology is better than Blu-ray technology...the drive technology is only a part of what make this thing work smoothly...you have to think of the hi-def devices as PCs..because thats what they are...they all have processors and memory..the blu-ray technology is actually confined to the drive of the device...so if you see stuttering it's because the data isn't being processed fast enough...on a PC that usually means a processor upgrade or a memory upgrade is necessary...that's what samsung will also need to do...the data coming from all of these drives to the CPU is actually coming faster than is necessary to produce 1080p...so there's no issue of the blu-ray drive being responsible for any stuttering...as far as the PQ goes, it's up to the DISC MANUFACTURERS to use appropriate codecs and sample rates and enhance the digital quality BEFORE they encode the movie...if you encode the movie poorly it will have poor PQ..it's that simple...the bluray and HD-DVD drives inside these devices just pick up the data...they don't control how the data that they read will be displayed onscreen...the quality of the decoders are another issue that can impact how good the PQ is...but decoders are separate hardware that have nothing to do with the drive's ability to read the data...so let me make my position clear now...the blu-ray TECHNOLOGY works and so does HD-DVD technology but bluray technology has the edge because they are more suitable for the PC market and will allow more data content per movie disc (especially since the technology already supports up to four layers per side)...it also provide the medium that allows for the move away from data compression altogether as the data discs aquire more layers...remember that the best visual experience is actually from uncompressed data...compression only came along because we didn't have the bandwidth to move the data....that has changed...compression is useful now to allow for even more content to be placed on the disc...but as the disc capacity increases compression becomes less necessary ( for video at least)
The use of the technology as was applied to the samsung machine was poor...it's just like if you went out today and bought a cheap DVD player and it broke down a month later..you don't say that DVD technology doesn't work, you say that the cheap device based on it doesn't work...
I see your point that Blu-ray technology is probably better suited to the PC world mainly because of its 50G capacity. But do you realize that HD DVD deviced a three layer 45G disc and was trying to get Sony on board concerning a joint venture before they both split sides?
I know that on paper and "lab" results the Blu-ray discs seem omnipotent, but in the world of real tried and true technology that can work with HD content right now, HD DVD is primed and proven.
The reason Toshiba even came out with a 1080i player first is to meet the needs of 90% of consumer homes that only have 720p and 1080i HDTVs. They are the format that speaks to the real needs of current customers.
You're still basing your way of thinking on the consumer electronics point of view though...that way of thinking doesn't provide the best way of judging these things because you're using less details about the inner workings of these devices to come to your conclusions...consider this..lets say you have two computers that work at a mere 400mhz and you put an 8x DVD burner in one and a 16x burner in the other...when you try each at full speed you get better performance from the 8x system...does that mean that the 8x is better than the 16x?...NO of course not...can you automatically blame the 16x burner for the poor performance? NO...will you get better performance by upgrading the components...YES!!!...well that's the case here with Blu-ray technology...in order for bluray technology to work as well as HD-DVD is working right now you have to upgrade the components that are being used with it...Reading blu-ray video Roms require a higher processor bandwidth and, as such, gives the processor more work to do...I keep having to restate that the DRIVES on these devices holds the HD-DVD and Blu-ray technology...the rest of it is just PC components in a box...
there's a difference between testing blu-ray technology and testing the APPLICATION of bluray technology...when you use a ATAPI bluray burner drive you are testing the bluray technology directly..when you use a Consumer electronics HD device such as the Samsung, you're testing APPLICATION of the blu-ray technology in the device...again, the blu-ray drives are only responsible for dishing out the data to the rest of the machine...in the case of Samsung, their application of the technology in the machine leaves alot to be desired...but the technology remains intact because it delivers the data to the rest of the machine at the required rate..the rest of the machine (i.e. software and hardware) just can't handle it properly...you also have to remember what DVD actually stands for...DIGITAL VERSATILE DISC...it's a way of structuring data on a disc...it's not a video disc...it simply supports a data structure that allows video data to be stored on it and be retrieved from it...and while part of the impetus for the creation of the new format may have come from the need for support for HD video (and for new copy protection technology), it's not supposed to be the most important consideration...in the case of HD-DVD backers, that was the case, leading to the lack of futureproofing that it has...even back then, the Blu-ray camp thought the PC application should be more important since advances in storage technology were on the horizon that were to make the DVD format obsolete on the PC...that's why there was a split and it's on record...if the only application of DVD was for video only, i would have no problem supporting HD-DVD...but it's a DATA format that supports video, not a video format the supports data...and that's why we can't agree...video is only a form of data...but video requirements are mostly static for a given application (by application i mean DVD or HD video), unlike the other data applications of these formats...hard drive sizes are not static, otherwise PC users wouldn't need to move away from the DVD format at all...but harddrive sizes have been doubling so the storage devices need to keep up..we now have 750GB drives with perpendicular technology..you can't back up such a drive using regular DVDs...the main gripe i have with HD-DVD has always been that it's not just limited in capacity now, but it will remain limited because it relies too much on old technology from DVDs and CD's...it's not a format that allows for real expansion in capacity...what you see now in capacity of HD-DVDs is literally at the upper limit of it's technology and that was good enough for the backers since it was built only to accomodate HD video requirements....the only way to improve on it is to start from scratch and build a new format...but that new format is already here, just not backed by the DVD forum...so do we use the intermediate DATA format that is already becoming obsolete by progress in other areas of the data management sector, or do we use the more future proof format that allows the disc format for DATA storage to try to catch up?...
You need to think about the future...the day is coming when 1080p will be obsolete...the day is coming when a movie trilogy will be released on a single disc...the day will come when a movie has five alternate endings, all in HD..the day is very near when all harddrives will cross the terabyte threshold for good...if both products were equally future-proof then the decision i've made wouldn't have been so easy...for me it's not about the present capacity, it's about the POTENTIAL future capacty...if people really think that satisfying the 'now' is more important than taking a more holistic approach then the world is in trouble...it's the same reason why we have things like polution and global warming now...go figure...
This is a current review posted on DVD TOWN.
Toshiba vs. Samsung - HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray
The First Fight in the Battle for HD Supremacy. We give you the first impressions of the Samsung Blu-ray BD-P1000 player and compare it to the HD-DVD players from Toshiba.
By Dean Winkelspecht
The format war is upon us for market share in a hopefully lucrative High Definition Video Disc market. Toshiba has been given the seal of approval by the DVD consortium and are considered the official HD-DVD format. Sony has decided to give their proprietary format the nod with Blu-Ray. Before the first shots were fired in this new format war, Sony found many backers to their proprietary format and looked to be the early favorite. Then, Toshiba and friends caught the eye of Microsoft and came out of the gate first. The standard definition DVD format has a huge foothold on the home video market and they are expected to hold market share dominance for at least the next four to five years. Can either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray make a dent in the sales of standard definition DVDs? Or, will this format war end up with two casualties as DVD-Audio and Sony?s SACD discovered when they went up against the incumbent Compact Disc?
I can safely say that I have bought less than a dozen VHS tapes for my own viewing. Once I was able to afford my own ?things,? I went out and bought a Pioneer LaserDisc player. I was enthralled by the large shiny discs and knew that LaserDisc was the ultimate in home viewing experience. 1997 delivered a huge blow to us Laser aficionados in the form of DVD. A little 5? disc was promising to be superior with its compressed digital video and native Dolby Digital support. Many of my peers vowed to forever hate the little newcomer and hold steadfast to our 12? gold platters. Then, just two weeks before the arrival of this new format, my Pioneer CLD-D704 shredded its motor and I needed a new LD player. The only replacement I could find was a Pioneer DVL-700, a LaserDisc/DVD combo player. I had no choice but to purchase this unit and enter into the DVD era. After all, how could you possibly own a DVD player and not buy a DVD or two?
My purchase landed me a reviewing position here at DVDTown and then as one of the first reviewers for DVDFile.com. I became an early adopter and a LaserDisc lover that was not afraid to speak out on the benefits of the new digital format. I found myself championing the new technology and slowly saying goodbye to a format that had kept me entertained for quite a few years. Now DVD is the old man and after nearly a decade there are not one, but two newcomers who want to relegate him to the annals of home video history - Toshiba with the HD-DVD format and Sony with the Blu-Ray format. As was the case with LaserDisc, there is controversy as to whether or not embrace the new technologies, not just because of the uncertainty to abandon the old, but now a decision must be made as to which one of the new should be accepted. In the desire to present full coverage to the masses on these new formats, I volunteered to tackle both formats.
Samsung BDP-1000 Blu-Ray First Impressions
John J. Puccio, my friend and colleague here at DVDTown.com, has done a wonderful job of covering the two Toshiba HD-DVD players. I personally own the cheaper Toshiba HD-A1. There is no need to go into any first impressions of the HD-DVD format and I?ll back John?s words on his views towards the format. James Plath has a full article coming on the Samsung BDP-1000, but I will offer up some brief first impressions to wet your appetite until Jim completes his review. So I will apologize for not going deeply into either player, but within the next few days both players will be covered completely and you will be able to learn a great deal about either of them in their respective reviews.
Personally, I find the Samsung BDP-1000 to be a nice unit. Physically, it is a sexy machine. The case is a nice glossed black that just shines. Too bad you cannot see the shiny black surface in my home entertainment center. It is jammed in one space with a Samsung DVD Recorder. The front of the machine is very attractive blending a black upper and titanium bottom that mirrors my Samsung LCD. Odd how a few years ago, a Sony VCR, Sony DVD-7700 player and a Sony Wega television sat in the same spots that are now dominated by Samsung. The Samsung units look nice and the BDP-1000 is by far the best looking piece of electronics in plain view. Turn the unit on and you are given a glowing blue lightshow where the control pad, power button and Blu-Ray logo shine in a luminescent blue light. The display counter is not nearly as bright and is overshadowed by the very bright control surfaces.
The player starts up fairly quick and gives a Samsung Blu-Ray screen on the HDTV set. The HDMI interfacing is very smooth and fluid. The tray opens and blue light fills the front of the unit. Then, we come to one of the troubling elements of the BDP-1000, the remote control unit. Small buttons, no backlighting, a cheap feel and unmarked buttons are all negative strikes on the remote. A thousand dollars and I get a remote that looks like one of those universal jobs you get at the dollar store. Still, the remote has most of the necessary functions and with a little bit of practice, it is fully usable. Within days it will be replaced by my Logitech Harmony remote, but for the fairness of writing this article, I stayed with the factory remote.
Configuring the machine took a few minutes, but some who may not be as tech savvy or familiar with Samsung equipment may stumble around a bit. The default output for my unit was set to 720p. I had to change it to handle 1080i. The player itself will also output 1080p, but my television is none too happy when you try to get it to display that level of detail. Two issues I have discovered with playback is that a couple times during playback, the picture will stutter for a brief second or the sound will drop out. I?ve seen a few very quick blackouts as well. After five discs, the problems happen two or three times per viewing. There is also this little animated hourglass that lives to taunt me. It appears a lot and the player seemingly takes a long time between functions.
Standard DVDs can be upconverted to glorious high definition with the BDP-1000. Well, unless something happens to both my Toshiba HD-A1 and my Pioneer Elite DV-47A, I do not think the Samsung will ever see a standard definition title. The player barely surpasses my Pioneer in clarity. 4:3 or non-anamorphic titles are stretched to fill the screen. The image lacks any great amount of clarity and the upconverted DVD image just does not excite me much. Given the slower loading times over the standard definition player, I do not see much need to use the BDP-1000 as my primary device for the older discs. For those who are looking to replace their DVD players, the Samsung is adequate for the job. I just have better options available.
The Samsung provides memory card slots. I found these useful after my trip to the Camaros at Carlisle show. It was great fun pulling the memory stick out of my camera and showing off the Concept Camaro in glorious HD. I was amazed at how much detail my camera is capable of when I have a steady hand and I applaud Samsung for giving me this browsing capability. The downside is that getting a picture to display without the graphical display bar over top if it was cumbersome. You select the picture, then choose to play the slideshow and quickly hit pause. You must also deal with the hourglass between every button press. Hunting and pecking at your pictures can be tedious and is a slow way of showing off just selected photos.
My overall feelings towards the BDP-1000 are hot and cold. I think it is a great looking piece of electronics that has a wide range of uses. You can play MP3s, show digital camera photos, play DVDs and Blu-Ray titles. However, it appears a little bit buggy in the Blu-Ray department. I hope a firmware update via the memory card slots (no Ethernet connection) will fix some of the problems. For a thousand dollars, the player is a bit costly for the problems it has.
How does the Toshiba and the Samsung compare?
After spending a week with the Samsung BDP-1000 and now having the Toshiba for over a month, I feel pretty confident in pointing out the pros and cons for each unit. Both players have a few weaknesses and both players have a few things they do better than the other. HD-DVD, the format, seems to be walking proudly in its early days and even though it is far from maturing, the format is showing hints of greatness. Blu-Ray, on the other hand, looks like it was rushed to market solely for the purpose of getting on shelves. The format is forced to live on single-layer discs until they can master the manufacturing process of dual-layers. Supplements are almost non-existent. Blu-Ray should have been left in the oven a bit longer. HD-DVD players seemed rushed, but the format at least appears ready for the limelight. Blu-Ray is offering nothing but a better picture than standard definition for a higher cost.
1. The players and their price tags: The Toshiba HD-A1 was the inaugural HD-DVD player and debuted with a wallet friendly price of $499. This is very cheap when compared to even the initial DVD players or the ill-fated launches of DVD-Audio and SACD. The Samsung BDP-1000 has the designation as the first of Blu-Ray and it costs twice as much as the Toshiba at $1000. This mirrors the early costs of DVD, but when its chief rival is half the price, Toshiba certainly takes the price comparison. The players themselves are both fairly large. Especially the Toshiba, it is a beast. If Toshiba is the beast, then the Samsung is clearly the beauty. It is a fine looking machine. It is not as heavy as the Toshiba, but it looks and feels better constructed. The flip down door of the Samsung stays closed and isn?t poorly fitting like that of the Toshiba. The Toshiba is clearly the better value, but the Samsung is the better built and looking unit. Each player has similar hook-ups, but the Toshiba has a nice little Ethernet connection that has already proven helpful when updating my firmware.
2. Their god-awful remotes: When I first laid my eyes on that polished aluminum I thought ?Wow, how retro.? After a few seconds, I decided it was oversized, heavy, ugly and practically unusable. The gloss black face hides the text for the closely spaced and identical buttons and during ideal viewing conditions (lights out), it required a halogen flashlight that would not wash out in reflection the button text. To use it best, you have to memorize the button locations. To HD-A1X has backlighting to it. The remote is also horrible in responsiveness. Using the direction button is a mess. I know it is the remote, because my Logitech Harmony works like a charm. To Samsung also suffers from no backlighting or glowing text. The buttons are small, but differently shaped. It is slightly better in low lighting, but it feels very cheap. The remote is more responsive and if I had to pick a winner, I?d take the Samsung, but I hate both remotes. Thank goodness for universal remotes.
3. Operation and Load Times: I typically turn on the Toshiba when I get an inkling to watch a movie. Then, by the time it turns on, I have made my decision of what to watch. If I buy a new movie, I come home, turn on the Toshiba and then I remove the shrink-wrapping and security stickers. I have found ways to reorganize my viewing habits to fit the Toshiba?s start up schedule. I just have nightmares about double-pressing the Open/Close button and having a three minute wait to press it again. The Samsung starts up much faster. However, between most operations, it makes up for its quick start by introduction a little hourglass animation that is cute the first dozen times, but taunts you the next few hundred. I?d have to say that I like the Samsung?s start up timing and its own menus look very nice when compared to the Toshiba?s low resolution and horribly uncreative menus, but the Toshiba responds better once the film starts. Both players are about even in the performance category for standard operation and load-times. The waiting periods are more spread out in the Samsung, where the Toshiba hits you hard early.
4. Standard DVD & CD Performance: As I?ve mentioned earlier in this article, the Samsung is not my choice for being my upconverting DVD player of choice. I?d rather use my older Pioneer Elite unit to handle the DVD tasks than the Samsung. The Toshiba is, however, a great upconverting DVD player. The image is very clear and detail approaches HD quality. I did some A-B comparisons between my Pioneer and the two players with ?Jarhead? and ?Alf: Season Two.? You could see many more details on ?Jarhead? on the Toshiba. It was quite impressive how it handled the standard DVD presentation. The Samsung was slightly better than the Pioneer, but much of the film the picture was about identical. The old Alfer really showed how far superior the Toshiba is. The colors and details were remarkably better than what the Pioneer or Samsung could handle. Additionally, the Toshiba player pillar boxes the 4:3 image. Nice. I hate having to always change my display settings on the television when using the Pioneer and the Toshiba does it for me. At $499, even if HD-DVD fails, the Toshiba is perhaps the finest DVD player I have seen yet.
5. Next-Generation Performance: Here it is, the part where we can talk about how Blu-Ray and HD-DVD compare where it counts ? High Definition. Sadly, this comparison is not entirely accurate for a few reasons. First and foremost, Blu-Ray is currently saddled with space limitations on the media. They are having a difficult time mass producing dual-layered media and are not expected to deliver dual-layered films until after the holiday season. Because of this, the Blu-Ray titles are being presented in near ancient MPEG-2 conversion. I hope this is the cause of my player?s hiccups and they will go away through time. I have a five year warranty, just in case. The HD-DVD films utilize Microsoft?s VC-1 compression. The films are being released in Dual-Layer. Here is the sentence you are waiting for: At the current time, HD-DVD offers a superior picture to Blu-Ray. Once dual-layer Blu-Ray discs become available, that will change.
Early on in life, my Toshiba HD-A1 had some hiccups too. It was more unresponsive and there were some odd HDMI handshaking problems (the Samsung handles HDMI handshaking better, by the way). I connected the player via the internet and downloaded a firmware update. Since then, that player has been superb. The BDP-1000 is having hiccups too. I hope they too will be resolved. HD-DVD currently offers a very stable and consistently high quality image. Blu-Ray, on the other hand shows brief minutes of brilliant before stepping back into a lower quality image. It is still better than Standard Def DVD, but at this point, HD-DVD looks incredible, save for a bad release or two such as ?Full Metal Jacket?. So currently, the Toshiba player delivers the best visual splendor of the two, as the Samsung is hobbled by the current state of Blu-Ray and possibly some technical problems.
Audio-wise, the tables turn a bit. There has been a lot of discussion on the sound presentation of the Toshiba. Dolby TrueHD is currently not being supported by the format and the Toshiba downcoverts the Dolby Digital Plus signal to DTS. A few of the early releases had soundtracks with very low volume levels and the best sound clearly was delivered from the analog outputs. The Samsung is not without its problems. Dolby Digital is supported from the digital output, but you must play with the settings to get multi-channel surround sound. I found this to be a frustrating experience. Instead of Dolby TrueHD, Blu-Ray is using uncompressed PCM 5.1 audio. The sound is again, remarkably better through the analog outputs. Unlike HD-DVD and the Toshiba, the uncompressed PCM soundtracks have all been consistently of high quality and ?House of Flying Daggers? is one of the finest soundtracks I?ve ever heard. Where the Toshiba and HD-DVD gets the visual nod, so far Samsung and Blu-Ray get the aural nod.
Closing Thoughts:
The formats are young and immature and the two inaugural players are far from perfect. Toshiba has corrected some of the early faults with its behemoth unit via a firmware upgrade. The Samsung is currently hobbled in ways the Toshiba saw, but firmware updates may not be as easy. HD-DVD is showing superior compression and has more living space than Blu-Ray and at this stage is much more poised for center stage. Visually, HD-DVD is ahead and where HD-DVD is providing a fine number of supplements, Blu-Ray is decidedly bare-bones. With the state of the formats today and Toshiba?s firmware update and especially considering the price, HD-DVD and the Toshiba player looks like quite a bargain when compared to the sexy, but troubled Samsung and its not-quite-ready-for-prime-time Blu-Ray format. If you are looking to test the waters of HD video discs, my personal decision would be to take a serious look at HD-DVD. If you want to jump into to the Blu-Ray water, you may want to wait a little bit until Samsung corrects their problems and Blu-Ray can offer at least what DVD can. Presently, it cannot.
This review falls in line with the majority of reviews that i've read online and elsewhere...but as i said, they are just Consumer Electronics reviews of products based on new disc technology...while HD-DVD is being better applied in the latest HD players, it's not the best DATA technology for the reasons i've been stating all along...it's that simple...so while it doesn't really matter which format is used for playback on HDTV, it does matter which one gets to replace the standard DVD format on the computer...
let me start by saying i'm a true sony fanboy but supports hd-dvd. i'm also one of those early adopters and paid $700 for a japanese ps1, imported 3 psp and bought a $900 first generation dvd player. notice that most of these are ce products. and in my opinion hd is more suited in this category. for regular consumers, who really needs a 30gb or 50gb storage capacity? i got a dl dvd burner (vaio laptop) and haven't burn yet a single dl disc. and who will regularly use a pc to watch hd movies? again, this is just my opinion. btw, i got a toshiba hd-xa1.
RS, you clearly don't require any additional storage capacity if you've never needed to burn a DL disc...but you have to remember that there are lots of persons out there who do need it and i happen to be one of them...just because you don't need it doesn't imply that most of the rest of the world doesn't either...we all use our computers differently and, as such, generate different amounts of data...if you've ever processed digital video and audio in the quantities that i have you'll realise the headache involved...and it's going to get even worse when HD camcorders become more mainstream...in my case it's much easier to backup two 500GB harddrives when you don't have to contemplate regular DVD or external drives...more and more branded computers are being sold with 200GB or more...it's a logical step...
If the shoe fits....
You have said time and again that you are not a Sony fanboy, so maybe you are a Blu-ray fanboy! It seems that whenever anyone speaks positively about HD DVD you seem to pop up out of nowhere to state info that has been refuted by almost every major reviewer of the formats. Do you work for Sony, PC World, or Blu-ray? I ask this because you seem to me to be an evangelist for the formats. There are lots of underhanded dealings going on with Best Buy and Sony, infact over 500 customers on AVS Forum have complained about the practise of denying them purchase of the HD-A1 and being told that they are all recalled; the practise of Sony advertising a 50G disc that they cannot produce, and if they did would require almost all of the space (about 45G) just to fit a movie that HD-DVD can handle with merely 25G because of their useage of the archaic MPEG-2.
RS is right, the majority of buyers are not going to require your so-called 50G of room only videophiles are. Don't think for one instance that I am a Sony hater, I own the Sony Dream System state of the art surround sound, I also own the most expensive DVD camcorder that Sony makes.
You will probably write another 80 lined answer to my response but please don't bother.
MJ, i'm using my dvd burner on home made movies from my hitachi dvd camcorder (could be a sony too if they arrived early) and converting sony digital 8 movies to dvd. most of it are within 2 hours so their just fine with a single disc. same with digital images. i understand that some people like you might have bigger capacity needs but i'm talking about the majority. not to say i'm not gonna support bluray because i already put my name at gamestop in case they start getting pre-order for ps3 and was contemplating on getting the samsung model until i read the reviews.
This is yet another review about "Blues" posted on 'The Home Theater Blog'
June 28, 2006
Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD Fact vs. Fiction
Alright yesterdays post got me a bit fired up, I think it?s time we clear up some myths surrounding the supposed technical superiority of Blu-ray over HD-DVD. Immediately after the initial announcements of Blu-ray and HD-DVD back in 2002, the Blu-ray camp began floating the idea their format was technically superior to HD-DVD.
Well, as with all things consumer electronics, specifications rarely tell the full story. Many companies plan on certain features and functions for their products but whether those specifications actually make their way into the final product is another story.
Granted both formats are still evolving (firmware updates and potential dual layer introductions) and I readily acknowledge what I?m about to layout here only applies to today, however it?s still important to note the distinctions between what was promised and the reality.
Myth: Blu-ray is superior because it supports 1080P and HD-DVD doesn?t
Reality: This myth stems from the players themselves and not the actual disc formats. All HD-DVD?s released to date are encoded at 1080p; Blu-ray and HD-DVD are no more defined by their respective players than the DVD format was. Many of the first DVD players didn?t support DTS, but do you hear anyone claiming that DVD doesn?t support DTS?
No, neither the HD-A1 or HD-XA1 currently support 1080p output, but with Toshiba?s third HD-DVD player/recorder supporting 1080p output, I think its safe to assume that all future HD-DVD players will do the same.
More importantly only a handful of the 1080p displays on the market today accept 1080p input, they take 1080i and internally de-interlace it to 1080p, this is why Toshiba chose to forgo 1080p output on the first two players. It was a simple matter of real-world functionality versus a perceived benefit.
The truth of the matter is the majority of the 1080p capable displays on the market, have the ability to internally de-interlace 1080i video to full 1080p resolution. So 1080p from HD-DVD is technically possible right now.
Myth: Blu-ray supports lossless audio where HD-DVD does not.
Reality: You know, I don?t even really know where this one comes from, but I?ve heard this fallacy floated around by both retail salesmen and supposed authorities alike.
HD-DVD supports Dolby TrueHD (lossless) and DTS-HD , currently the DTS-HD decoding is DTS core (lossy) only. It?s assumed that full DTS-HD (lossless) support is coming by means of a firmware update. Either way, Dolby TrueHD is supported right now, and definitely qualifies as a lossless format.
Myth: Blu-ray has more capacity.
Reality: Follow me carefully here, because the distinction I?m going to make does not rule out the possibility that Blu-ray will indeed, ultimately offer more storage capacity.
While Blu-ray is (theoretically) capable of delivering a dual-layer 25GB disc for a total of 50GB?s, the truth of the matter is, all they have shipped thus far is single layer 25GB discs.
So in reality as of today Wednesday the 28th of June 2006, HD-DVD discs at dual-layer 15GB for a total of 30GB offer more capacity than Blu-ray, I?ll repeat that, as of right now HD-DVD is delivering more capacity than Blu-ray. That kind of flies in the face of everything we?ve heard about Blu-ray thus far huh?
The HD-DVD camp has even reported they aren?t far from putting their 45GB (3-layer) discs into production. And while I?ll have to take a ?believe it when I see it? stance on that one, I?m a lot more likely to believe someone who promised less capacity (It was assumed the first HD-DVD?s would be single layer 15GB) and delivered more, over someone who promised more capacity and delivered less.
Of course Sony could trump all of this by delivering their dual-layer 50GB discs, or even their 4 layer (yes four layers!) 100GB discs, but until it?s on the store shelves and playing in Blu-ray players, you?ll have to forgive me for being less than convinced.
Myth: Blu-ray has better image quality than HD-DVD.
Reality: I?ve yet to find one article, early review or credible observation from a trusted source, that flatly states ?Blu-ray looks better than HD-DVD?. All the Blu-ray reviews I?ve read thus far all throw in some caveat or disclaimer, that seems to indicate HD-DVD?s performance hasn?t been eclipsed, even if they liked XYZ feature in Blu-ray more.
My own observations (Which I freely admit weren?t with a system I was intimately familiar with) found the exact opposite to be true. So far I?ve viewed, ?House of Flying Daggers?, ?Hitch? and ?Ultraviolet? and the Blu-ray demo disc on a 61? 1080p Samsung rear-pro display. Flying Daggers had severe macro-blocking in scenes with single fields of highly saturated colors.
The same thing presented itself in ?Ultraviolet? during a close-up of Mila Jovovich's midriff; I again noticed distinct pixilation as if the subtle changes in skin-tone simply weren?t being rendered. It was as if this section of video just got a wash of color as opposed to the subtle shading I?m used to seeing from HD-DVD.
Hitch on the other hand was just plain bad; I noticed more macro-blocking and shading problems, and less sharpness than the other two titles to boot. It was better than DVD but not better enough to justify the expense.
While the Blu-ray demo disc did indeed have better image quality than the full length Blu-ray movies. I have to assume with the demo disc coming in it at 30 minutes or so, Sony was able to take full advantage of Blu-ray?s bit-rate, whereas they couldn?t with the full length films.
Summary:
HD image quality is by and large dictated by its bit-rate, MPEG2 is an ancient (in relative terms) video codec. VC-1 is two to three times more efficient than MPEG2, and thus far it seems to be apparent, that Blu-ray?s smaller disc sizes are only exacerbating this inefficiency.
Until Blu-ray either adopts VC-1 as their sole video codec or releases Blu-ray movies on 50GB discs, it?s very unlikely that Blu-ray?s image quality will even match, much less surpass that of HD-DVD?s.
HD-DVD is simply delivering higher bit-rates and overall better image quality, than Blu-ray is capable of with the combination of MPEG2 and 25GB Blu-ray discs.
In theory with 50GB discs Blu-ray could greatly improve its video quality even with MPEG2, but again until it?s on shelves and in players it?s just a theory.
Like I stated earlier, much of this could change with the introduction of dual-layer, 25GB (50GB total) discs from Blu-ray. But this begs the question if Blu-ray part deux only matches and doesn?t surpass HD-DVD in video quality, why the $500 premium?
Apapa, i understand that you support HD-DVD's application in HD players thus far...i've got no problem with that since it doesn't matter to me which format wins control over the HDTV market...i've only taken issue with your proclamations which seems to suggest that you think that reviews on 1st generation Consumer electronics HD playback devices can actually show which technology is technically inferior...i now understand that your standpoint comes from a lack consideration of the technical aspects involved in making these devices work, the extent to which each technology has been implemented and how these relate to the future viability of each...i expected you to know that from a common sense standpoint, mere CE reviews cannot prove a format to be better than another...that can only be done in a lab by making actual data measurements directly from the drive...these reviews can only suggest which format may be better applied to HDTV at the moment...those two are not the same thing...now i don't work for any of the companies involved and have no interests in this matter other than personal ones...that said, i do see the need to offer an opinion when i see that a alternative perspective on a matter is lacking...i propose that judgements be made based on more RELEVANT information not less..that's why i POP up, as you put it, so often...my participation here is to counter an ideology that's just not scientific and overly simplistic...no reviewer has sought to answer a simple question....what, besides the encoding, can account for the differences seen between the performance of the two machines?...
Basically, my point has been that there are many factors that come together to enable HD display performance to be "perfect"...in this so-called format war, both formats are capable of delivering the required data rates from the disc, but it takes more than that to render perfect HD video (in other words, the data rate provided by the drive may be compromised by other parts of the machine that can't handle that volume of data)...as of late, only HD-DVD players have managed to come close to rendering the data at the required rate and quality...but the actual HD-DVD drive inside the box had little to do with it because the data has to be decoded and then processed and the quality of both of these are what determines picture quality for the most part...the bottom line for the HD-DVD machine is that the higher quality encoding is reducing the processor workload and allowing quality HD video to be rendered...if you still don't get that then god help you...
i know A/V philes like to rush to pick things but i'm just urging everyone to wait (and read) first before making any declarations or decisions, because choosing too soon may hurt you in the long run...it would perhaps be funny to see the A/V philes choose HD-DVD players as their prefered choice, only to see the regular consumer adopt Bluray a year later..after all it's the regular consumer that will eventually do the real picking...stranger things have happened...we can only speculate on the factors that will cause widespread adoption of one format over the other...for instance, we may argue about which format is better now, but if AACS is ever cracked the film industry may turn to bluray because of it's proprietary BD-CPS...the regular consumers (not the videophiles) should be cautious and not spend money on any HD video players and movies just yet...
Oh by the way, here's another independent review:
CNET editors' review
for Samsung BD-P1000
Reviewed by: David Katzmaier
Review date: 6/30/06
Intro
Design
Features
Performance
Ratings explained
As the sole set-top representative of the Blu-ray camp, the Samsung BD-P1000 currently stands as the only unit that can play back Blu-ray movies. If that matters to you, then you might be in the tiny portion of the HDTV-owning population to whom this $1,000, first-generation player could possibly appeal. For everyone else, this review is less buying advice than a referendum on an emerging format war. Which is better, Blu-ray or HD-DVD? Well, after comparing the image quality of both the Samsung BD-P1000 and the Toshiba HD-A1 using the highest-performance 1080p display we had available (see Performance), we can say the nod goes to HD-DVD for consistency of picture quality. Most Blu-ray titles still look spectacular, and others slightly less so, and since both formats are in their infancies, we expect the video quality of both HD-DVD and Blu-ray discs to keep getting better. In other words, the battle is just beginning, and the Samsung BD-P1000's performance in this review has almost nothing to do with which one, if any, disc format will eventually succeed DVD.
With all that said, the Samsung BD-P1000 is in many ways less satisfying than a regular DVD player. Discs still take a long time to load, we encountered more than our share of operational hiccups, and to really enjoy its considerable capabilities, you'll need a large-screen, high-resolution display. If you have such a display and a good deal of disposable income, then you might as well add the BD-P1000 to your rack next to your Toshiba HD-DVD player. If not, do yourself a favor and wait until generation two.
Hello there guys.... I enjoyed reading your points of view on this format dillema! But honestly .... don't waste too much time taking sides or proving points of view. I have to say the information I found is excellent but why type when you can watch those new movies over and over? I totally agree with you MJ for your understanding in the future of our changing digital world. I am happy to find someone who thinks like I do....
However, even though I would prefer for Blue-Ray to succeed in the long run, I enjoy watching movies..... Yea, .... It's sucks to have to see your favorite movies divided into sections on store shelves, but what the heck? I already bought my Samsung BD-P1000!!! I love it!!! I will buy an HD-DVD player manufactured by different brand in the near future!!! YES... it' cost me a fortune but hey.... I work hard, and I think I deserve to own next generation technology.... as do ALL OF YOU! Yes the units have their glitches their format issues or what not, but c'mon!!! WE ONLY HAVE ONE LIFE!!! People who honestly can't afford the new generation players will have no choice but to wait for the prices to start dropping..... BUT I GUARANTEE YOU THAT I NOT EVEN NEARLY MAKE AS MUCH MONEY AS YOU GUYS DO!!!
WHY MISS OUT ON THE MOST ENTERTAINING PART OF OUR LIVES?
People that love movies and understand what makes an electronic box tick .... shouldn't hold back on money!! After all what is money, A human invention...........
I have over 1000 DVD titles, over 600 Playstation, Playstation 2, Xbox, Xbox 360 games (not to mention the cartridges), I will get the PS3...... And most important I don't feel a loss when a format changes, I enjoy and evolve with the innovations....
Can't wait for the Tuesday releases!
Thanks Guys...
As for 1080p TVs there are very few out that support 1080p native. It's usually upscale by the set itself. In fact they have recently decided on encryption standard for this. In the case of Sony XBR1 and the new XBR2. They both are 1080p but XBR2 supports it native. And the XBR2 is not even out yet.