Blu-ray Disc Announces Copy Protection

The Blu-ray. I do more archiving than anything else. But would this new standard make it harder for people like me to back up my Blu-ray discs? I've had enough difficulty as it is and I back up everything I own because I tend to lose things for a while before I find them again (not really an organized person you know) so having back ups are nice.

I'm thinking the 2 layer blue ray sounds better. I mean, wouldn't the 2 layer be more reliable than the 3 layer?? MAybe reliable isn't the best word, but I can'y think of another at the moment.

Also, Blu-ray has a roadmap for up to 8-layer discs (200GB). Each will continue evolving, but Blu-ray has a much stronger line-up of supporters and is likely to pull further ahead...

HD will be cheaper for mass production, so I would expect recordable discs to carry over that savings to the consumer end in hopes of gaining wider support. Not to mention, with the announcement that Micrsoft will release an HD version of the X-box 360 in the second half of next year, we will see more games on the x-box using HD. They are cheaper to produce, and the x-box is much much cheaper to develop for than the playstation (using Blu-Ray). That should line up new developers and start-up on the x-box side of the fence. Sony's push for Blu-Ray is admirable, but they have a long running history of backing technologically superior propriatary formats, then pricing themselves right out of the market the're trying to compete in. Beta-Max vs VHS, DVD-R vs DVD+R, Memory stick vs SD/CF. I would love for Blu-Ray to come out on top, but I'm not holding my breath, I've seen this battle before. Let's just hope they finialize their damn standards. Toshiba has been toying with the idea of dual format player/recorders. Mabey by late 2007 we'll see some.

Let me clear somthing up xbox 360 will only be able to play movies on hd-dvd. games will only be on regular dvds. as far as the savings i doubt us consumers will see any of that.

And only some unspecified future version of the Xbox will have HD-DVD - the initial version will be standard red-laser DVD. PS3 will be Blu-ray out the gate, giving BD an immediate 7M unit headstart by the end of 2006 (based on consensus analust forecasts). Sony will sell the PS3 under cost as they did the PS and PS2, and even at the rumored $449 price these will sell like mad.

Blue ray !
Blue ray !
Blue ray !
Blue ray !
Blue ray !

Oh god! Why can't we just have one spec! I can just see a world of problems with the introduction of the new technology. Will players be able to play both?

Blue Ray

4

ME

I manly use DVD for archiving/backup's so storage size is the most impotant factor for me.

BOO! I hate blue ray, mainly any sony formats. Com'n I want something cheap and can store alot. That's what HD-dvd is delivering, I don't need a disk with more space than both of my hardrives combined. Honestly the gameing console war will determine which format wins IMO. PS3 vs Xbox360. I think if xbox360 dose well, so will HD-dvd. Of course people will have to upgrade their consoles with the HD-dvd drive, but It'll be worth it. Once PS3 goes, so will Blue-ray.

Hasn't BlueRay released a trial version of a 4 layer disc topping out at 100GB?

Why is it that consumers seem to think that more storage space is always better? If Blu-Ray wins we all lose.

Both camps have value, . I think we'll end with up with both. The computing side of me loves the HD its great as much as you could use and cheap?, and 90% of people are only just learning what "storage" really means, they haven't really got into using what they have yet. How many people use, all there download limits?. On the other side with the kids, they will want the games machine in PS3 & with video picture owner grunt , which we can also use on the TV side with Blu-ray from the Video shop as a winner. Also when you consider what people are spending on 5 gig MP3 players there both be cheap value.

Blu-ray has already won, but most people don't know it yet. If you look at the companies behind BD vs. those behind HD, it is no contest in terms of the volume of devices that will be shipped, which will help BD achieve lower prices. Game (almost) over.

Blu-Ray is the best choice

Blu-ray also has way better interactivity, so movies can have much better bonus features.

Sony, representing one of two competing high-definition DVD formats, stated it will simultaneously embrace digital watermarking, programmable cryptography, and a self-destruct code for Blu-ray disc players.

Er... no thanks.

Would you pay for a player that can be destroyed remotely by "content owners" ? I'm sure LP's and cassettes will be around for quite a while ...

Just wait for the first virus to come through and wipe out everyones spiffy new drive...sounds like a plan to me.

Im with the last two .. Lock Blu-Ray down that much and ill personally pay twice as much to use a different format. Why jump on the Blu-Ray/Sony bandwagon.

Is the "self-destruct" for the player or the media? I thought it was talking about the media. So a pirated copy of something would be destroyed by the player.

I won't buy either one. If a dual-layer DVD costs $10, I can only imagine what a dual or triple layer HDVD or Blue Ray disc will cost.

No matter what format they go with for movies, I'll wait for a chinese knock-off player that'll let you play your content without all the copy control crap they're adding to it and is region free.

Y'all need to read a little more thoroughly. All Sony did was announce Blu-Ray will be using AACS...JUST LIKE HD-DVD.

The technologies listed...watermarking, remote destruction, phoning home, mandatory updates...all that stuff is in the AACS standard.

That's the other shoe...there will be no other standard to choose from. Both competing HD technologies will have the same DRM and content protection strategies. There's nothing to see here really...all Sony did was eliminate a reason for content producers to choose HD-DVD over Blu-Ray.

From a consumer standpoint this is not good, but not really relevant for choosing one format over another.

The self-destruct is for the player, not media. The player is supposed to stay connected to the internet, so content providers can flash and EEPROM remotely and the player will stop working. Check out Tom's Hardware for more details.

You think I'm going to buy a player where I can't back up my discs before my kids scratch them, and if I try the Gesthapo will fry my expensive player???

No thanks to either of them... I think I'll stick with plain ol' DVD...

I think Blu Ray is the loser.

It is delicate and needs to use the blue laser.

VMD is capable of many, many layers and uses existing red layer technology.

Of course VMD suffers from "not invented here" and is doomed to a quiet death.

Sony has tried using thier own formats - and have lost everytime, but this time im not sure. They do seem better in storage size, but I'm sure sony will put loads of protection on thier blu-ray disks. I'll stick to HD-DVD as Toshiba seems like a lesser evil.

Instead of all this research in assuming any and all customers are potential thieves, why not put that money into refining the actual tech of the product?

No matter what happens, someone, somewhere will crack it, and all the millions of dollars will be down the toilet.

Yes, DVD piracy has been totally cracks... but look at sales. They are still through the roof! On a personal level, I know nobody (and I know a good amount of geeks) that cares enough to copy DVDs, and waste the hard disk space. (Removing region code "protection", so *their* properly purchased DVD can run on *their* own properly purchased player is another matter.) If a totally cracked/broken format is having very little losses from piracy, keep it that way.

To boot, why in the world would I allow my DVD player to be subject to the whims of the Internet? Why would I want some outside party to know what I played, when I played it, for how long, and which scenes I skipped or replayed? If I'm having a divorce lawsuit, why would I want a player that would let a third party let my ex find out if I watch pornographic DVDs, and the list of every single movie I've watched?

DRM is bad enough, DRM so intrusive that it monitors every move you make with a movie player and offers people the ability to disable every single movie you own with a click of a mouse is unacceptable.

Anyone remember the Divx player that Circuit City once sold where you had to be online (or have a free phone line) so you can play your movies? Same offal, different day. I'm pretty sure one of the reasons that this is being done is so the various consortiums of BD and HD have the ability to remotely shut down someone's movie collection, wether legal or not, and get information on suspect DVDs to hand over to their legal team, or the local copyright law enforcement.

Like Shakespeare said in Romeo & Juliet, "A pox on both your houses".

This stuff is intrusive spyware wrapped up in a dedicated box to display pretty pictures. I hope it suffers the fate of the now-dead Divx player from Circuit City.

Betamax isn't dead -- until recently, professional studios and news stations kept using it until they moved to digital tape.

Both the physical technologies of these products are great, but in order to get people who value their basic freedoms and privacy rights, these players should never be purchased.

I have no plans to purchase one in the forseeable future. For one thing, Blue Ray will require that the player have access to the internet (huh?), so media companies can change encryption routines, and even "nuke" your machine if they feel their security has been compromised. I don't like any of it. This DRM they're proposing is a deal-breaker for me.

one red laser is inferior

the brd format is superior in two very important ways
first its easier to say than hd-dvd, that makes a big difference to some consumers believe it or not
second it has a larger name recognition

finally the things people are complaining about are found in hd-dvd players as well. so pick the cheaper format, which currently is brd. the estimated prices for both are high, but brd is cheaper by $200, plus if you buy the ps3 its even cheaper still.

one red laser is inferior

the brd format is superior in two very important ways
first its easier to say than hd-dvd, that makes a big difference to some consumers believe it or not
second it has a larger name recognition

finally the things people are complaining about are found in hd-dvd players as well. so pick the cheaper format, which currently is brd. the estimated prices for both are high, but brd is cheaper by $200, plus if you buy the ps3 its even cheaper still.

also pay further attention still, hd-dvd has not announced a drive for computers. they have announced burners but they function more like vcrs than anything.

This DRM is overeaching, it is sad to see that Hollywood can so easily bend over and rape the hardware vendors, Both Blu-ray & HD-DVD are temporary technologies until HVD comes along. What about those who archieve video data, what happens to them when their home videos cause their players to stop functioning? What about the first virus that triggers self destruct on every player on the network? Not to mention the rampant privacy concerns this brings up. Noteing the fact this won't stop professional piracy in any way shape and form the entire thing just looks like is it designed to leave a horrible taste in the mouths of the consumers.

I've always been an early adopter of electronics. Here's a list of my most recent significant financial investments: DVD-RAM- not very successful, one of a muddied plethora of recordable DVD media; HD TV, which will be rendered useless by both of these proposed HD video formats; DVD Audio- probably the blueprint of what will happen with these formats. The list goes on and on. They need to develop one format. I'm tired of being burned, and now they're going to sweeten the pot by rendering my player useless too. Wow, where do I sign up! Give me a break.
Secondly, they need to quit being so paranoid about piracy. A few non-invasive deterrants in the hardware and software are fine, but both HD formats gone WAY overboard this time. Big brother is here folks. Besides, the best deterrant to the endless battle of beating hackers is put forth media that people WANT to buy.

you people wanting this crap are stupid morons. Done you care about fair use. All these technologys do is take away your rights. why don't you just move to north koria becuse the USA is headed that way.

All those formats are shit compared to what Pioneer has got. 500gb discs using ultraviolet lasers (or something like that).. cant we just jump to that instead. 25gig is a crappy jump.

Remember when CD came out? 700megs! More than the harddrives could hold by far at the time. Now the harddrives are way ahead of the discs by far.. 400 gig drives vs 8gig DVDrs. I cant back up my drive on DVDRS at all :(

I was stoked about a better standard for audio and video until this DRM BS came down. DVD audio and SACD are pretty much moot because people can't copy them. Look, consumers should be able to make a perfect backup copy of something they paid their hard earned money for. End of story. Any technology that won't let me do that, sorry, I'm not interested.

I'm sure they are going to wrap up the whole "you need to be connected to the internet" thing as a Good Thing - you'll get access to exciting (read: boring) online materials and links to their sites where you can buy more stuff!

They won't even mention that you won't be able to play any discs without an internet connection because the REAL reason it's there is copy protection.

If they put on the box "This device requres an Internet Connection because of Copy Protection" it might have people asking questions. And we can't have that!

The only thing we can do, as the informed folk, is to try to let as many people as we can know what DRM (in the modern sense) is, and what you can lose if SOMEONE ELSE breaks the law.

I'm quite happy with standard def DVD quality. There's no ****ing way I'm allowing an internet connection monitor my playback and the DRM is FAR too restrictive.

Long live standard def DVD!

And while I'm at it, I work at a TV station and all the effort we put into our HD broadcasts is practically in vein considering how few people are actually able to receive such signals...

And Swe, Sony's digital Beta tape is the current standard in broadcast TV. One cassette can hold over 3 hours of content, enough for a baseball or hockey game without a tape change.

Professional Pirates will not be deterred, those making the real money and doing the real evil will simply find ways to recreate the watermarks, and jump through any other hoops the players will force on the media.

This is only an unneccessary shot at the consumer, and has potentially distasterous affects on Fair Use.

Basically, its a huge overreaction, and the technological equivalent of spanking a baby with a battle-axe

Copy protection is a waste of everybody's time and money.

1) The money you spend protecting against sofware-pirates is broken by software-pirates.

2) The copy-protection only affects the people who actually buys the products and not the ones downloading them (see 1)

All in all you spend a lot of money on making it difficult to buy a product that actually works, while the software-pirates continue to just crack the protection and still do what they do.

In the end the regular customer has to pay for this, and sometimes they can't even play their legally bought CD/DVD/Blueray/etc.

A waste of time and money...

Frankly, I am convinced that the arduous DRM provisions built into both standards mean *both* standards are doomed to failure. The first group that comes out with a disc at least as good as DVD and that people can actually use as they please will succeed.

For example, a disc that can play a movie in at least as high quality as DVD, work with existing AV/TV equipment, let you fast forward advertisements, play media purchased from anywhere in the world and play media on your computer/portable player/home cinema would be an instant success.

A disc that plays no better on normal televisions (ie not hi-def, or alternatively a hi-def television with a screen size too small to notice the difference anyway) than a DVD, and that subjects the public to even more arduous restrictions is forever doomed to failure.

Capitalism is great 9 out of 10 days. This must be day 10. I agree with the previous posters in that they can both keep their technologies. If only consumers could organize as well as companies. A boy can dream can’t he?

Once a DRM (draconian restrictive measure - in this case, at least) algorithm is cracked, shutting down that player won't do much; pirates will just convert the movie into a torrent or burn it across multiple dvds (much the way you can get VCDs now).

Here's the really dumb thing: pirates don't need to crack the DRM, they just need to smuggle a camera into the theatre, or set a camera @ home in front of their TV.

DRM isn't bad, but this (AACS) is going too far. All Hollywood is doing is hurting Joe Consumer, and untill broadband penetration is total (and cheap), themselves.

*cough* *cough* - yeah then we could, *cough*, totally screw them over the internet. *cough* and then *cough* have too formats. Ok, who's turn to load the bong!

*cough* *cough* - yeah then we could, *cough*, totally screw them over the internet. *cough* and then *cough* have two formats. Ok, who's turn to load the bong!

For independent background information on Trusted Computing and DRM search Google for:

"Ross Anderson Trusted Computing FAQ"
"EFF: Trusted Computing: Promise and Risk"

Alternatives to DRM and TC?
Search Google News for "Musikfreedom"

Oops, correct spelling is "MusicFreedom"

I'm laughing right now about about this newest farce of an attempt at DRM. What's going to stop a "hacker" from modding the firmware so that the Blue Laser discs (whichever format) will work without an Internet connection?

DRM is a joke, no matter what you do the determined will always find a way around it. And as far as formats go: More storage means more attractive. Blu-Ray has 40% more storage capacity, which makes it much more attractive, especially to people who like to record their favorite shows. Isn't 14 hours of South Park better than 10?

I don't feel like laughing at all. DRM is very powerful technology and it would be a mistake to underestimate it.

I can't wait to sue the first disk maker that disbles my f****** BLU-RAY drive for millions....

I just don't get it!!! Why spend so much money, time and effort putting in so much protection only for some to come and crack it (try at least) but I bet someone will come up with a way.

Why don't they just reduce the cost the end user (me and you ) has to pay to buy a BD or HD-DVD movie without protection? Either way a huge chunk of profit is lost, but more people will buy if it is cheap than to bother with the hassle of copying. Therefore there will be more sales and therefore more profit.

Most people who buy copies or copy for personal use only do it because they can't afford to buy the original. If they could, they would be more likely to buy the original.

Look what happened with the DVD region thingy. No body new about it and then rumours started flying about that not all DVD’s can be played on any DVD player. This scared people so they stopped buying them. I think DVD's were launched in 1997 but sales didn't pickup until after 2000 only once they got multi-region out.

Tell me again what was the point of the region thing! To stop copying or to stop sales!
What a waste of time, money and effort!!! They could have passed the saving onto us the consumers!!!

DVD's are easy to copy but it's a waste of time! I prefer to just go and buy the original it's a lot easier plus they are reasonably priced (some of them not all).

Most people don't even know what DRM is or what these idiots are trying to do with Blue Ray and HD-DVD with this AACS.Once the word gets out what it's going to take to play the disks and that they can destroy your
player no one will buy that crap.You just watch as both of them go into the tank and they will have to yank all that crap if they want to sell any of it!I will be putting out the word as much as I can and I know that when the word gets out to most people,they won't buy it either!! Money down the drain for Sony and the other idiots following in their foot steps!!

I agree with you "Jhon".. as posted earlier myself, but I came to think of a funny thing.

The music industry has been ranting about loss of millions and billions of dollars because of piracy. When you come to think of it the price of music CD in my country have dropped, and since then added with copy-protection. So it actually seems that they lost money on dropping the price, and then spend money on how to make sure that a normal consumer can't play a legally bought CD. All I see is they spending money and preventing themselves of earning them...

Just a thought.

I think it will be very hard to break the codes. Maybe we will never. Just look, Has anyone broken windows DRM for the movies and music content? Would that be great to have all music from napster play forever without buying another monthly membership.

also, keep in mind things change, I believe dvd's use 8bit encription, The new disks use 128bit or 256bit, How long would it take to crake a code that big. Some say 512bit is impossible, so is 256bit close it impossible.

Also keep in mind if you don't copy you will be fine.

Unlike current DVD technology, the BD-ROM format uses a much stronger encryption algorithm based on 128-bit AES. It features system renewability for key revocation, and incorporates a physical technology for preventing so-called "bit-by-bit" copying to recordable media. Under this scheme, content providers will physically insert a so-called "ROM mark" onto a prerecorded disk during the mastering process

There's a ton of bad information here:

- Internet connections will *not* be required. In fact, the spec for the first generation of players doesn't even support a network connection.

- Players which do have a network connection won't be able to phone home to report on what you're watching. There are privacy laws, you know, and you can bet lots of people will be running etherfind to figure out what's being sent over the wire.

- To the person who said their HDTV will be made obsolete by Blu-ray and HD-DVD, you've got it backwards. Blu-ray will make your HDTV worthwhile, because you'll be able to see high-def content other than what's available on broadcast TV.

absolutely no protection is un-crackable, remeber this!

Copy protection is fine. If something isnt done about piracy, theres no incentive for studios and artists to create/produce for us. The problem is. I like being able to have a backup copy of my movies. These discs become unreadable if you look at them funny, so I keep the original in pristine condition, under lock and key, and use the copy for everyday use.

I also like to mix my own soundtracks. I dont want to have to carry around a libray of discs just so I can listen to 5 or six songs that really like.

How is blu-ray copy protection going to affect this?

well i havent bought any dvds EVER and onley about 12 cds in my entire life because theyr too esey to damage and because of the protection etc...so i wont be buying any of these if all the things iv read here are true.

maybe we could have a compromize. just watermarks would make it so that the average joe can copy it as much as he wants and share with a nebor etc , but so if sombody brawd casts it over the net or a professional pirate sells it they can be tracked down and fined.

and the idia of bare discs it the #1 turn off for me...unless its in a cartridge (wich im shur it wont be) i wont spend a single penny on it.

BLU-RAY is my chose

reasons, mainly the more layers the more i worry about it tolerance to daily/regular usage.

The greater emphasis on physical protection of the disk.
Bluray is proposed to be encased in a permanant cover like a floppy disk,

HD-DVD is just in the form of existing CD DVD which are prone to scratches. one scratch on cd had 100MB data loss, DVD 700MB DL 1.4GB, HD-dvd could loss 2.1GB DL 4.2GB TL 6.3GB.

Physical protection is what i want to protect my investments.

The dependance of backing up DVDs will be less important with Bluray.
Maybe the DRM wont bother us as we would be less likely to nbeed to backup in case of scratches

Gates: Blu-ray DRM is 'Anti-Consumer'
By Nate Mook, BetaNews
October 17, 2005, 2:04 PM

As part of a speaking tour at universities across the United States, Microsoft chairman Bill Gates sat down with Princeton's newspaper to discuss the road ahead. When asked why Microsoft chose to support HD DVD over Sony's Blu-ray format, Gates replied that Blu-ray's copyright protection scheme is "anti-consumer."

"The inconvenience is that the [movie] studios got too much protection at the expense consumers and it won't work well on PCs," Gates said. "It's not the physical format that we have the issue with, it's that the protection scheme on Blu-ray is very anti-consumer." Gates also questioned how much next-gen DVD formats will even matter, saying content will soon be streamed directly or stored on a hard disk.

Hey not to worry the protection on the Blu-ray disc is gona be cracked everyone know sooner or later it will happen.

Everyone needs backups especially ps3 game (thinking alittle into the future), when they get worn out.

sorry its bedtime nitenite (to be cont.) ill reply in couple of days.

i vote for neither, dvd wins hands down.
most people cant afford hd tvs and have no use
using hd or blue ray for movies at $900 dollars or more for a small hd lcd.

plus who cares quite frankly if I can watch Final destination part 10 on hd? Older movies have crappy
quality do to aging, no dvd will clear up cigarret burns,
movie scratches. Movie studios are still going to loose do to lack of content as now thiers barely
six movies a year that are any good, studios need to concentrate on content, not technology.
plus anyone who supports copyprotection is inane,its insane seing this george orwell 1984 for retards mentallity corporations like sony are adopting. ps3 will bomb if sony overcharges at 800$ or more a pop blue ray might not win out.

I'm sticking with regular Dvd's unless I can copy the thousands of dollars I spent on DVD movies onto Bd or HD. If I can't do that, *uk*-Them all.

can you tell me what are special software and hardware required for blu ray disk

You know!!! That if this blue ray disc comes any time soon.. The PC industry is going to loose alot of money.. What is the reason for me to have one if I cannot choose what to do with it anymore. Pretty soon microsoft longhorn will be out and there is not going to be any free anything..........this is not the greatest situation we are in...

Have you guys even heard of the HVD format coming early 2007? Holographic Versatile Disc. These puppies will hold in excess of 1TB on a single layer. Apparently, there are already expectations well beyond 5TB per HVD. Screw Blu-Ray & all the current productions. I've been waiting a looong time for HVD, and it's right around the corner. =D

DRM will be the hot topic for years to come. No doubt the Firmware will be hacked and a lawsuit may force the end to the spyware. Until we actually see the recorder/players in action, it will be interesting to see if it will work without a connection. What about the new Sony notebook? You are on a plane at 40,000 feet no internet connection, you go to play your store purchassed BD Movie and it wont work? Something does not sound correct there. What happens when you tell your firewall not to allow connection? Will it still not work? Who knows, will be interesting to see the real reactions from buyers and how quick we can hack a turn it off mode. My thought is that at $1000 most of us are going to stay with our current DVD format. There are thousands of titles of movies and concerts in 5:1 on regular DVD and I hope as the consumers we are going to resist the new format until we see lower prices on the machine and an acceptance from the computing world itself. HD discs, DRM, and Blue Ray have a long way to go before it becomes acceptable. This could be a short term expensive format.

"Media companies would even "nuke" your machines if they feel threatened"? For Blu-Ray DVD users?

Is that even fucking legal?

Bigger midea disk for your privacy?

So is the extra space really worth you loosing your privacy?

I can see it now people will just mod the firmware and creat a emulated jack to sim the internet connection and disk data or somthing in that order.

Sony is just taking the wrong approache to problem. This method will do nothing but hurt the end user.

Cons

1. Who likes to be spied on?
2. Who would buy it if they knew it would able to "Self Destruct"?
3. As mentioned in some previous post what about mobility?

Pros

1. Bigger midea archiving.
2. More secure data formats.
3. Customer data collection VIA internet.
"The Cons really outweigh the Pros end user."

I use my persoanl DVD player all the time and I won't give that up because there isn't a internet connection near to connect.

Allso consider the poor *** people out there who just finaly where able to afford to upgrade to DVD and the others who still haven't upgraded.
(Yes they still exist.)

Enjoy your blu-ray player. This player will self destruct. Class action lawsuits, priceless